I will listen to Mr. Connell before I ever listen to ANYONE on this message board regarding mold.
But thanks for the warning…](*,)
Since Leviticus was written in Hebrew/Aramaic, I find that difficult to believe.:roll:
James, you are way out of your league on this one.:shock:
The typical Industrial Hygienist education on mold is very limited. According to my Industrial Hygienist says it is an 8 hour course. He teaches it at Missouri colleges.
Now lets have some fun…
.The Qualifications of Caoimhín P. Connell are extremely high and if I was going to be in a group discussion with him I would like to be on his side .
…Cookie
[FONT=arial, avant garde][size=]Re: There Is No Toxic Mold! (Reply to unEducated Friend)
Posted by Caoimhín P. Connell on 1/04/04
Hello Educated Friend:
I am not sure where you got your information concerning
industrial hygienists, however, contrary to your misnomer
moniker, you are greatly in error. Although it is certainly
true that some IHs may spend their entire time merely
sampling the air in some specific space, it is equally true
that some medical doctors spend their entire time reviewing
insurance claims for insurance companies. However, to then
conclude that because some medical doctors spend their
entire time reviewing insurance claims indicates that
ALL medical doctors so do would be an error of
reasoning.
Contrary to your rather odd idea of what/who an industrial
hygienist is, I know of many IHs who have never
collected an air sample. I know of IHs who are only
certified in sound issues; certified exclusively in
ventilation issues; and IHs with PhD in microbiology.
Personally, my 17 years as a forensic IH has involved
providing expert witness testimony and services in everything
from fire investigations, microbiology, radiation toxicology,
lasers and a variety of other topics as diverse as sound (I
performed work for the FBI on the Oklahoma Bombing case),
ergonomics (you may enjoy reading my web page on carpal
tunnel syndrome located at
which I have provided a link for you at the bottom of the
page) and I have an extensive background in radiation
toxicology (you might even enjoy reading my page on radon
located at
News, Politics, Sports, Mail & Latest Headlines - AOL.com)
As far as microbiology goes, I developed the sampling
protocol for fungal and Bacterial entities that is now being
adopted across the nation and I am currently an expert
witness on three microbial cases. You may also be surprised
to learn that I developed a laboratory fume hood evaluation
protocol, aspects of which were adopted by ASHRAE in their
national standard, and that I developed a new method for the
analysis of lead in whole human blood using graphite furnace
atomic absorption spectroscopy by applying Zeeman light-
splitting; (oh, and did I mention that I developed a new
method of cyanide speciation by ionchromatography while I was
with the Colorado School of Mines Research Institute?) With regard to your rather uneducated comments on my
profession, next time you should learn what an IH is before
you criticize one. So, my friend, perhaps you should follow
your own advice when you say:
[/size][/FONT]
So where does it say he has any training in mold? It does not appear by some of his statements he has done much work in the mold field. Because some of his statements do not work in the real world. I am going to believe my Industrial Hygienist over him ever time because he is certified and experienced in mold that what he mainly does ever day.
Caoimihn may be understating the threat of toxic forms of mold. Perhaps it is, indeed, a more serious problem than he has outlined.
Still, James, there are remediators out there whose marketing strategy has much to do with fear to the degree that if my waitress were to get confused and bring me blue cheese instead of ranch on my salad, I would be expected to call men in with white Tyvek suits to remediate my lettuce.
There are extremes on both sides of this issue and something closer to the middle will probably end up being proven to be most true, IMO.
James Reading your posts do you know who they where talking about on the TV station do you have a company like they do.
I wonder did you go to his web site do you know what he does for a living do you know who he is employed by.
I think he has higher qualifications then you might think.
He has been in court more then likely more times then every Home inspector on this BB added all together .
He has never lost a court case regarding Mould .
http://www.forensic-applications.com/
Read some of his reports and there are many .
… Cookie
No, my company does no remediation work. We just make sure that the remediation work is done correctly. Most of the inspections and testing I do behind remediators does not turn out good for the remediators. They have a hard time understanding to get a clear on their remediation work there most be no visible mold and the considered toxic spore counts must be low (none for Stratybotrys and Chaetomium).
I had a neighbor die of mold (according to the autopsy) and two family members in two different situations get deathly ill because of mold. My mom will be on oxygen for the rest of her life because of it.
What some of Mr. Connelly says is wrong. It is hard for me to believe studies or guidelines by the American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists; New York Department of Health; American Industrial Hygiene Association; Indoor Environmental Standards Organization; Occupational and Environmental Health; Institute of Inspection, Cleaning, and Restoration Certification are wrong. These people are some of the smartest environmental minds out there.
No, my company does no remediation work. We just make sure that the remediation work is done correctly. Most of the inspections and testing I do behind remediators does not turn out good for the remediators. They have a hard time understanding to get a clear on their remediation work there most be no visible mold and the considered toxic spore counts must be low (none for Stratybotrys and Chaetomium).
I had a neighbor die of mold (according to the autopsy) and two family members in two different situations get deathly ill because of mold. My mom will be on oxygen for the rest of her life because of it.
What some of Mr. Connelly says is wrong. It is hard for me to believe studies or guidelines by the American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists; New York Department of Health; American Industrial Hygiene Association; Indoor Environmental Standards Organization; Occupational and Environmental Health; Institute of Inspection, Cleaning, and Restoration Certification are wrong. These people are some of the smartest environmental minds out there.
Posting this link to show a some cracks on OUTSIDE of block basement
walls,some cracks are visible on inside, you`ll see this chtt early in vid.
See corner crack at 10 second mark? See someone applied tar on outside
but sure appears they didnt use hydraulic cement, BIG mistake. Itll
re-leak. And better backfill w/most-all gravel.
Also notice some block bsmt walls aren`t even parged on the outside,
another mistake.
Scroll to Mold & Basement Problems Video
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=basement+waterproofing&num=10&so=0&hl=en&start=40
Then, in this Vid…around the 2:20 mark you`ll see them in basement
using fiber straps on inside of block wall. Wall is cracked, has cracks on
the OUTSIDE, soil-pressure and any roots are against the exterior of wall
Exterior cracks are still…OPEN! Inside drain tile and
baseboard systems with or without sump pumps do NOT stop/prevent
water entry through wall, through cracks and straps do NOT lessen/
relieve soil pressure or roots.
scroll to Better Choice??? Video
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=a+better+choice&hl=en&sitesearch=
Cost effective solutions? w t f There is one/lone solution to stop/prevent
water from entering cracks on outside of hollow blocks damiitttttt :mrgreen:
One REAL solution to relieve/lessen soil pressure or roots against a
basement wall. And i bet many of these companies charge MORE,
sometimes ALOT more when talking people into this chtt versus
exterior waterproofing…where needed!
Another link…Bsmt Waterproofing School in Practice Ha, HAHAHAAAAAA!
http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&q=waterproofing+repair&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wv
How is THIS going to stop/prevent water from entering
through a wall, stop/prevent wet spots/dampness on walls, mold n efflorescence on walls, relieve-lessen expanding/contracting soil on outside of walls........it cant, ever, never.
The FOOL on the HILL, Capitol Hill
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYA8wHC5Ebg
Mould can affect people differently. That is why neither the Canadian or American Governments have set threshold limits as to what is or is not acceptable levels. Mould is part of our natural plant life. Spores will enter in & out of our homes every time we open a door or window. What we want to eliminate is a breeding ground for mould to grow. Stop water intrusion into the building envelope, control indoor humidity to under 50%RH, limit the number of indoor plants, make sure the dryer is vented outdoors, keep your house clean ,etc. If though mould has got a grip into your home either by flood or whatever, you may need the services of a Remediation Co. Any company worth their salt will make sure the cause/source of mould growth is repaired/corrected FIRST before the balance of cleaning/repairing is done.
Doug
MI senate votes to increase penalties on builders :mrgreen:
http://www.wzzm13.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=85061
grow old with you/Adam Sandler
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CYI5bKZMes
somebody kill me please/Adam Sandler
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTnq268y2ms
Lying Home Seller Found Liable For Hiding Mold
http://blog.njeifs.com/2007/09/lying_home_seller_found_liable.html
Love Grows where my Rosemary Goes/Edison Lighthouse
Good Morning, Gents!
Hope everyone had a good week.
Good comments and lots of confusion. Cookie and Bushart are bang on the nail. But let me try to clarify some of Mr. Braun’s misconceptions.
James E. Braun
That mkes no sense at all. So you are saying they do no spore cleanup?
In 19 years, having been involved in literally hundreds of residential and commercial mould clean-up projects, I have never encountered a single mould remediation company or project that that was intended to be a spore clean-up project, and I have never encountered a single remediators that attempted the same.
But when you clean up mold all the spores in the air and at least all horizontal surfaces need cleaning. You will continue to breath these spores in if they are not cleaned up. Think of it like the puffy floating seeds of a Dandelion, but microscopic size. The Dandelion may be dead but not the seeds.
The stamen is based on a false premise, so let me break it down:
But when you clean up mold all the spores in the air and at least all horizontal surfaces need cleaning.
One can never NEVER NEVER NEVER **NEVER **“clean up mold all the spores in the air and at least all horizontal surfaces…” it cannot be done and it has never been achieved (within the context of this forum and discussion).
You will continue to breath these spores in if they are not cleaned up.
The point is without purpose since you will also continue to breath them AFTER you are done cleaning, and often you will have HIGHER exposures to the mould spores AFTER you are done cleaning.
Think of it like the puffy floating seeds of a Dandelion, but microscopic size. The Dandelion may be dead but not the seeds.
I like the analogy and it is a very good way of explaining exactly why bleach, fungicides and other magical gimmicks don’t work. You may have killed the organism, but you have done nothing to the entity that produces the effect. Furthermore, to expand on your analogy, if you could see spores you would understand the futility of what you propose, because you would see a world of gazillions of spores … and those would be just the ones that are normally found up your nose and on your clothes. Trying to look across a clean room would be like looking through a snow blizzard of dandelion seeds.
A successful clean up of mold results in not alot of spores being left behind. You got to do alot more than just stopping the water. Just pull an air sample sometime after the water is stopped and the mold growth is dry. Mold can pull moisture out of the air and still stay alive, still producing spores.
The statement is based on several false premises. Let’s look at the comment.
A successful clean up of mold results in not alot of spores being left behind.
Simply not true. A successfully completed mould remediation in a property will leave behind BILLIONS of mould spores in that property. You have never seen anything else, you just think you have. I have seen cases wherein following the successful mould remediation project, (as stated above) there are greater numbers of spores present. Mr. Braun is working off the entirely false and unsupported assumption that spore numbers are an indicator of the degree of contamination. Simply not true. I can show you hard data that demonstrated that some of the lowest spore counts have come from houses with literally thousands of square feet of confluent growth. It is for this reason, that the US EPA and the US Centers for Disease Control and others recommend AGAINST such “testing.”
Consider this, Mr. Braun, the following are very VERY real data (I’m not making this up): Based on the data below identify for me which property has a mould problem? Which property has had a successful mould remediation? Which property is in need of mould remediation?
Property 1 contains: 67 spores/m3
Property 2 contains: 3,257 spores/m3
Property 3 contains: 1,600 spores/m3
Property 4 contains: 1,700,000 spores/m3
Property 5 contains: 95,133 spores/m3
Property 6 contains: 1,173 spores/m3
Property 7 contains: 97 spores/m3
Property 8 contains: 2,016 spores/m3
Property 9 contains: 129 spores/m3
Property 10 contains: 807 spores/m3
Property 12 contains: 353 spores/m3
Property 13 contains: 129 spores/m3
Property 14 contains: 20,440 spores/m3
Ready? Here we go…
Property 1 was a house wherein a steam line broke during the winter months and filled the house with steam for six weeks. I believe that it was only one of two houses I have ever seen wherein virtually every square inch of colonizable surface was blue or green or black and fuzzy. This house literally had to be entirely demolished on the inside and rebuilt, since the water damage was so extensive that the ceilings had already collapsed into the each occupiable space in the house.
Property Number 2 was a perfectly fine, brand new house that had never experienced a mould problem, and had never experienced a water problem.
Property 3 and 4 are the same property with samples collected a few minutes apart. One contained a little over one thousand and the other contained more than two million (the data had to be “censored” at 1.7 million since the spore concentration exceeded the ability of the method to quantify the concentration). There was a few hundred square feet of confluent, contiguous vegetative and active growth on the walls
Property 5 and 6 are the same property with samples collected a few minutes apart. This property did NOT have any kind of mould problem whatever. However, it was the apartment next door to Property 3/4. No remediation of any kind whatsoever was needed in this unit.
Properties 7 through 13 are the same property with samples collected minutes apart from each other. The samples were collected DURING an extensive mould remediation project.
Property number 14 was a normal, everyday occupied residential space that never had a mould problem, never had a moisture problem, never needed remediation and never experienced a single indoor air quality complaint. (By the way, I studied this property for one week, and during that week, the average spore concentration was just under five thousand spores per cubic meter of air.
The more spores that are left behind, the more chance mold will just start growing when it gets the moisture it needs.
Simply not true. I could give you two identical cellulosic areas under identical temp and growth conditions one with 100,000,000 spores per square centimeter and one with one spore per square centimeter. After the designated time, I could show you that the latter area (with one initial spore) was overgrown with mould, and the former was devoid of growth. Mr. Braun, you are VERY VERY confused about mould issues. And it concerns me greatly that you are providing people with “information.”
Mold growth have been found in the human body, eating away the tissue such as sinus cavities and lungs.
Rubbish. In the context of homes and indoor moulds your comments are complete rubbish. Please provide to me one single case (and articles from gutter press such as National Enquirer, CNN and other news outlets don’t count) that can support your silly statement. You are probably confusing your completely outrageous hyperbole with diseases such as aspergillosis, wherein colonization usually occurs in people who are already deathly ill and dying. The pathology is normally the epiphenomenon and not the primary pathology. Also, there are a very small number of fungi called dimorphic fungi that are capable of existing as a yeast at certain temperatures and a mould at other temperatures, and are significant human pathogens causing illnesses such as blastomycosis, histoplamosis, and coccidioidomycosis. But if you are trying to argue that living in a home (including a home with a mould problem) will cause these illnesses, then I look forward to meeting you on the witness stand! My work will have already been done the moment you begin to speak and embarrass yourself. To take either invasive or even superficial mycoses and extrapolate those to household exposures in the context of this forum in an effort to frighten people is in my opinion criminal, irresponsible and reprehensible.
Yes, you can not stop mold from growing when enough water is introduced. I have tested behind remediation companies that have remediated the mold correctly, even weeks after they have completed. The spore counts was still very low, just as it would if I had tested the day after they had completed.
Based on your own comments, I am going to state here, that I believe that you have NEVER conduct ANY kind of valid testing for moulds EVER in ANY case ANYWHERE. I am going to state that based on your own comments, none of you data is valid. I will do you and your colleagues a favor. Post your “tests” here, and I will perform a critical review of the “tests.”
The spore counts will stay low as long as a high level of moisture is not introduced into the environment.
Rubbish for which you cannot find any valid support. You have merely made this up, and the statement indicate that you are GROSSLY incompetent in the area of aerobiology, microbiology, and mould testing.
How do you know if all the mold is removed if you leave residual mold spores in the air?
For a start, you will always, ALWAYs, ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS leave residual mould spores in the air. Always. No exceptions. Therefore, your argument necessarily becomes “You can never tell if all the mould has been removed.” (Which by the way, it hasn’t. Only a fool would tell someone following a mould remediation that all the mould has been removed.)
I was just talking about mold spores that are considered toxic. Most molds will not hurt the average person.
Mr. Braun: I have a horrible realization for you. There are no toxic mould spores. The only people who tell people there are “toxic mould spores” are charlatans, kooks, and con-men. That’s it.
My friendly argument with Roy is just that. I will probably not going to get him to understand about mold. Heck, I probably can’t even get him to spell mold right.
I think you should listen to your friend, because he knows a lot more about this issue than you do (Indeed, I know of a 12 year old girl who knows more about this issue than you do.) It truly concerns me that you have demonstrated such gross technical incompetence in the area of moulds and aerobiology and that you are selling your services. It is my opinion that you are performing a gross disservice to you clients.
Now, that’s not a personal attack – that is a sound conclusion based on your statements. I don’t know you and you may be one of the nicest, kindest people in the world – but you clearly have not even got a rudimentary grasp of moulds and therefore, should not be giving anyone advise in the subject.
Now on to other posters…
William J. Decker
If you stop the water, the mold drys up and stops putting out spores. Then you remove the affected material and you have no further problem.
Kinda. Kinda not. But you’re on the right track. In some of my examples above I noted very low spore concentrations in houses that had very bad mould problems. One of the reasons is that as the mould was happily growing and munching away at the cellulose on the walls, it had no biological reason to produce spores. The organisms were having a territorial fight, and putting all their energy and resources into growth – not reproduction. Now, if we had allowed the surfaces to begin to dry, and then monitored the air for spores, we would have seen an explosion of spores as the organisms sensed the changing environment. That is the spores would have skyrocketed (even though the degree of growth and contamination would remain the same) as the organisms switched gears and moved from colonization to reproduction.
Spores cause the problem (to humans), but the mold produces the spores. Dry mold puts out no spores and is not a problem (unless it gets wet again).
Kinda. Kinda not. But you’re on the right track. Proteins, β-glucans and a few other families of compounds are the primary problem. The spores are just the more prevalent entity we find in the air (which, for the purposes of this forum and discussion) is the primary rout of exposure.
Just some thoughts to chew on. I’m just addressing ideas and concepts, nothing personal. And anyway, what do I know – Heck, I think rain is wet.
Cheers,
Caoimhín P. Connell
Forensic Industrial Hygienist
Forensic Applications Consulting Technologies, Inc.
www.forensic-applications.com
The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)
AMDG
You are nothing but a fraud. You disgust me. You make money by representing companies that care nothing about people just the almighty dollar. You misinterpret what somebody else says and twists facts and ignore other facts just to make a buck. I have worked for people who got harmed by people like you, and never asked for a fee. People like you should be stopped. Your misinformation is hurting people. You are nothing but a bottom feeder.
Projection, projection, projection.
Caoimhín
Mr. Braun: I have a horrible realization for you. There are no toxic mould spores. The only people who tell people there are “toxic mould spores” are charlatans, kooks, and con-men. That’s it
Good Day Mr Connell! I was always of the opinion that Stachybotrys was considered a “toxic” mould. From your previous comments am I to assume that this is not true? Doug
I would recommend reading some of the many reports
Caoimhín P. Connell has written to form an opinion on how much knowledge he has .
You can find just a few at the bottom of this
web site http://www.forensic-applications.com/ .
… Cookie
I would recommend you read some publications by American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists; New York Department of Health; American Industrial Hygiene Association; Indoor Environmental Standards Organization; Occupational and Environmental Health; Institute of Inspection, Cleaning, and Restoration Certification. Just because somebody posts dribble on their website does not make it true. He has not shown any mold certifications like I have asked for in the past. It is like going to a proctoligist for a head cold.
If there is somebody that says that mold can not make a person ill than I have a challenge for them. I have a client that has a house full of mold, if you can live in the house normally for a full week without getting sick I will give you one thousand dollars.
Dplummer can you tell me the difference between “considered toxic” than “toxic”. You should not be doing remediation work if you don’t.