Seems simple enough for a Home Inspector

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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Seems simple enough for a Home Inspector.


If you are not familiar with what seems to be wrong "electrically" through your eyes, I would recommend that you use the following statement:

Quote:
The electrical service equipment and other electrical systems throughout this building should be inspected by a licensed electrician, or the local building department.


Quote:
1. Panels and termination's .......... etc.
2. Devices and overcurrent protection, etc.........


How many times must we review multiple images here that always discuss the situation that involves and shows the so-called double taps?

Code Rule: Terminals for more than one conductor and terminals used to connect aluminum shall be so identified.

Quote:
Identified (as applied to equipment). Recognizable as suitable for the specific purpose, function, use, environment, application, and so forth, where described in a particular Code requirement.

FPN: Some examples of ways to determine suitability of equipment for a specific purpose, environment, or application include investigations by a qualified testing laboratory (listing and labeling), an inspection agency, or other organizations concerned with product evaluation.


Thank you for your time! ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)


--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



jtedesco wrote:
How many times must we review multiple images here that always discuss the situation that involves and shows the so-called double taps?


I would say as many times the question is asked if we are truly interested in safety.

By the way what does "Seems simple enough for a Home Inspector" mean?


--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Just a simple recommendation, Bob that’s all!


What difference is there when the same question is asked once or twice or a 100 times? What color is used for a "hot" wire, or can I put more that one wire under a lug?

A simple reply is what I provided. Please do not think of it as a sarcastic comment.

When, an if you ever wear an Electrical Inspector's hat, you will learn too see how some of the people in our trade do work around the country.


--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



jtedesco wrote:
Seems simple enough for a Home Inspector.

If you are not familiar with what seems to be wrong "electrically" through your eyes, I would recommend that you use the following statement:

Quote:
The electrical service equipment and other electrical systems throughout this building should be inspected by a licensed electrician, or the local building department.



The problem therein lies in the fact that MANY of these installations WERE installed by a licensed electrician, so why would having a licensed solve that?

Then, SOME of them are also INSPECTED by the local building department, complicating things even further.

Calling for a licensed electrician or building department inspection does not necessarily mean they will see what is wrong. We (several inspectors in my area) have been trying to work with the building departments for years, usually successfully, but sometimes the responses are 'I don't see anything wrong with that.' or 'So? We've been doing it that way for years and haven't had any problems.'

This is a learning experience for all, not just home inspectors, but the electricians who do the work and the building departments who inspect that work.

Some departments are still working with NEC editions from the 1980s. Why don't they update to the current versions? I don't have a good answer for that, just that it's a lot easier to "keep on keepin' on" than to change and learn something new, especially if you think the old way is "good enough".


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



jpeck wrote:
The problem therein lies in the fact that MANY of these installations WERE installed by a licensed electrician, so why would having a licensed solve that?



jpeck wrote:

This is a learning experience for all, not just home inspectors, but the electricians who do the work and the building departments who inspect that work.


I agree with that 100%.

From my experience in the real world and these type of forums I have no illusions that all electricians know which way is up.

Bob


--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Bob Badger wrote:
From my experience in the real world and these type of forums I have no illusions that all electricians know which way is up.

Bob


Bob,

Isn't that a sad commentary on the state of electrical contracting?

There are some who truly know what they are doing (like you) and some who don't even, as you said, "know which way is up".

But that probably applies to all professions as well, including ours (HIs). And the ones who truly need to learn are not out there learning.


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Yes it is sad, and from what I have learned the situation is very bad in some parts of the country.


I also agree this applies to all professions, electricians, home inspectors, doctors, politicians etc.

I am glad I live in a state with licensing requirements but a license means little more than the ability to take a test.

I work for a large company, we have many talented people however we do have licensed guys that I do not let actually wire things, I put them on labor type work. On the other hand we have apprentices that can wire anything. In my opinion it has as much to do with attitude as it does with aptitude.


--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Bob Badger wrote:
Yes it is sad, and from what I have learned the situation is very bad in some parts of the country.

I also agree this applies to all professions, electricians, home inspectors, doctors, politicians etc.

I am glad I live in a state with licensing requirements but a license means little more than the ability to take a test.

I work for a large company, we have many talented people however we do have licensed guys that I do not let actually wire things, I put them on labor type work. On the other hand we have apprentices that can wire anything. In my opinion it has as much to do with attitude as it does with aptitude.


Bob:

1. Are you speaking about Union or Non-Union Shops, such as the "IEC" or "IBEW"?

2. What kind of training is available for those who are working for a large company?

3. Are the licensed guys you mention in your shop being paid the same as those who can be trusted with the work to be done?

4. What do you mean when you say: "In my opinion it has as much to do with attitude as it does with aptitude."

![icon_cool.gif](upload://oPnLkqdJc33Dyf2uA3TQwRkfhwd.gif)


--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



jtedesco wrote:

1. Are you speaking about Union or Non-Union Shops, such as the "IEC" or "IBEW"?


I am only talking about what I have experienced which means merit shop.

I have nothing against the union but I can not comment on it as I have never been in the union.

jtedesco wrote:
2. What kind of training is available for those who are working for a large company?


We have free State certified in house training for the apprentices, the books are also free if attendance is good. The persons with the top grades get paid days off.

We also have OHSA, bio hazard, lock out tag out, first aid, fall protection, electrical safety, training. There are also sessions with product suppliers to learn about new methods.

jtedesco wrote:
3. Are the licensed guys you mention in your shop being paid the same as those who can be trusted with the work to be done?


No not a chance, it is possible for an apprentice to make more than a licensed employee.

That is the essence of a merit shop, you are paid for your merit.

jtedesco wrote:
4. What do you mean when you say: "In my opinion it has as much to do with attitude as it does with aptitude."


I would much rather have a person of below average IQ that cares about the job then a person of high IQ that does not care about the job.

IQ might not be the right way to put it perhaps mechanical aptitude would be more on point.

I really do not consider this trade rocket science, I can train anyone that wants to learn how to be an acceptable electrician.

Troubleshooting is another story, IMO you either have a gift for it or not.

I seem to have a sixth sense for the cause of mechanical or electrical problems it has always been that way.

Now ask me if I have a gift for the arts or sales and the answer is no way. ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)


--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Very nice reply Bob.


Now it is clearer to me as too where your are coming from.

Are there openings for anyone who carries a license, or wants to become an apprentise in your merit shop In the Boston Globe?


--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



jtedesco wrote:

Are there openings for anyone who carries a license, or wants to become an apprentise in your merit shop?


Always looking for new help.

Anyone interested can check it out here

http://www.constar.com/opportunities.html

Put my name as the referral and I will get a bonus once you reach your 6 month review ![icon_cool.gif](upload://oPnLkqdJc33Dyf2uA3TQwRkfhwd.gif)

Bob


--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

Originally Posted By: Harold Endean
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Joe,


I have dealt with Bob's company here in NJ and I will be the first one to tell you that they are TOP NOTCH! They were a non union outfit working in a large union type job. Their foremen Gary and Andy were very nice to work with. As I did my inspections, if I saw something that might not meet the code all I would have to to is tell them about it, on my next visit, it would be corrected. I would inspect this job every Tue and Thur morning between 6:30 AM and 8:30 AM and they were always there, always cheerful and always had nice words for me. I wish more companies were like them.

Harold


Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley
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Quote:
How many times must we review multiple images here that always discuss the situation that involves and shows the so-called double taps?


Sorry to get in on this thread late, but Joe, I have had LICENSED electricians come behind me and state that double tapped circuit breakers (not the Square D ones meant for it) were no problem, aluminum wiring connected to CU only rated switches was OK, and FPE panels pose no problem.

Naturally, I will continue to point out these and other issues and will gladly continue to look stupid to my clients in these instances in the name of safety, but please understand that there are people in all trades, not just home inspectors, who will ask the same question more than once and still not get the answer.

We also get the same question here several times as we have new inspectors joining daily, and they don't use the search feature to find their answer. Just politely help them, please.


Originally Posted By: roconnor
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jtedesco wrote:
How many times must we review multiple images here that always discuss the situation that involves and shows the so-called double taps?

If it's a simple answer I dont mind giving my opinion again. If it's more involved I tend to just give a link to my past comments (e.g. Al wire) ... ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Blaine and Robert:


Thank you. I agree, and I will not ask the question about repeating again.

I will answer the same question or add to any replies as many times as necessary.

I have been very busy building my new 2005 NEC Program and Convention Presentations, and with a recent death in our family, I was not paying attention to courtesy that is always due to our readers and members here.

Give me a call whenever you want. I carry my computer and phone on my side!


--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: bbadger
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Harold Endean wrote:
Joe,

I have dealt with Bob's company here in NJ and I will be the first one to tell you that they are TOP NOTCH! They were a non union outfit working in a large union type job. Their foremen Gary and Andy were very nice to work with. As I did my inspections, if I saw something that might not meet the code all I would have to to is tell them about it, on my next visit, it would be corrected. I would inspect this job every Tue and Thur morning between 6:30 AM and 8:30 AM and they were always there, always cheerful and always had nice words for me. I wish more companies were like them.

Harold


Harold thank you, that means a lot coming from you. ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif) ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)

To be clear it is not my company I just work there, but non the less I am proud of the good work we do and good people I work with.

Bob