Seperate ground for hose bib

Old house recently flipped.

GFCI in garage had separate ground connected to hose faucet in garage.

My question is why? Water pipe is copper connected with jumper over water meter. Also could be ground connection for GFCI.

Seems like this connection is not needed.

Would you recommend removal of ground wire or not mention at all.

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Before you could recommend removal you would first need to determine if the receptacle/box/cover was actually grounded.

In my understanding this is no longer an acceptable method of grounding. This is a newly rehabbed house, new panel, 50% new wiring. Left portions with knob & tube.

Seems like not the way to be grounding the GFCI or water pipe.

Using the water piping as the system ground (grounding electrode) is no longer considered “sufficient,” and is not used in new construction. However, often you find that is the only system-ground in place.

BONDING of the copper piping to the grounding electrode (system ground) is still required, so this grounding connection (regardless of what has been used as the GE) should be quite effective. If the circuit is already grounded via an egc, then this additional connection would be unnecessary.

In either case, I don’t see any reason to recommend removal.

You are correct

Why does it need upgrade?

You can have too much grounding can you?

The problem with this type of ground connection is if they replace any portion of the copper water pipe(Plastic) and why I believe they changed (Code)this type of ground connection. Being that the panel was replaced along with half of the wiring and the house was flipped(update kitchen, baths, ect…)I believe this is an improper ground connection and why I posted.

Once again you are correct.

This looks bad
It is bad
A bad person did it
It is not correct
It is useless
It needs to be addressed and removed

Metal plumbing pipes are not electrical pipes. We bond to them to remove any fault current and use them for an electrode if they are in contact with earth. We do not use them as a conductor.

250.118 list what can be used as equipment grounding conductors and plumbing pipes is not listed.

This needs to be called out and needs to be removed

Again, I see it as an “unnecessary” connection as opposed to an “improper” connection. That is, of course, assuming the circuit is already properly grounded, which would have been my focus of investigation.

Assuming this was being used as the egc for replacement of non-grounding type receptacles, would this not be compliant with 300.3(B)(2) and 250.130©?

Let’s look and see what the NEC has to say;

300.3 Conductors.
(B) Conductors of the Same Circuit. All conductors of the same circuit and, where used, the grounded conductor and all equipment grounding conductors and bonding conductors shall be contained within the same raceway, auxiliary gutter, cable tray, cablebus assembly, trench, cable, or cord, unless otherwise permitted in accordance with 300.3(B)(1)](http://code.necplus.org/document.php?field=jd&value=necss:70-2011:id02011004879#70-2011:id02011004879) through (B)(4)](http://code.necplus.org/document.php?field=jd&value=necss:70-2011:id02011004887#70-2011:id02011004887).
(2) Grounding and Bonding Conductors. Equipment grounding conductors shall be permitted to be installed outside a raceway or cable assembly where in accordance with the provisions of 250.130©](http://code.necplus.org/document.php?field=jd&value=necss:70-2011:id02011004494#70-2011:id02011004494) for certain existing installations or in accordance with 250.134(B)](http://code.necplus.org/document.php?field=jd&value=necss:70-2011:id02011004508#70-2011:id02011004508), Exception No. 2, for dc circuits. Equipment bonding conductors shall be permitted to be installed on the outside of raceways in accordance with 250.102(E)](http://code.necplus.org/document.php?field=jd&value=necss:70-2011:id02011004282#70-2011:id02011004282).

250.130 Equipment Grounding Conductor Connections.
© Nongrounding Receptacle Replacement or Branch Circuit Extensions. The equipment grounding conductor of a grounding-type receptacle or a branch-circuit extension shall be permitted to be connected to any of the following:
(1) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50](http://code.necplus.org/document.php?field=jd&value=necss:70-2011:id02011004004#70-2011:id02011004004)
(2) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode conductor
(3) The equipment grounding terminal bar within the enclosure where the branch circuit for the receptacle or branch circuit originates
(4) For grounded systems, the grounded service conductor within the service equipment enclosure
(5) For ungrounded systems, the grounding terminal bar within the service equipment enclosure
Informational Note: See 406.4(D)](http://code.necplus.org/document.php?field=jd&value=necss:70-2011:id02011009172#70-2011:id02011009172) for the use of a ground-fault circuit-interrupting type of receptacle.

Now let’s look and see what constitutes an equipment grounding conductor;

**250.118 Types of Equipment Grounding Conductors. **
**The equipment grounding conductor run with or enclosing the circuit conductors shall be one or more or a combination of the following: **
**(1) ****A copper, aluminum, or copper-clad aluminum conductor. This conductor shall be solid or stranded; insulated, covered, or bare; and in the form of a wire or a busbar of any shape. **
**(2) ****Rigid metal conduit. **
**(3) ****Intermediate metal conduit. **
**(4) ****Electrical metallic tubing. **
**(5) ****Listed flexible metal conduit meeting all the following conditions: **
**a. ****The conduit is terminated in listed fittings. **
**b. ****The circuit conductors contained in the conduit are protected by overcurrent devices rated at 20 amperes or less. **
**c. ****The combined length of flexible metal conduit and flexible metallic tubing and liquidtight flexible metal conduit in the same ground-fault current path does not exceed 1.8 m (6 ft). **
**d. ****If used to connect equipment where flexibility is necessary to minimize the transmission of vibration from equipment or to provide flexibility for equipment that requires movement after installation, an equipment grounding conductor shall be installed. **
(6) Listed liquidtight flexible metal conduit meeting all the following conditions:
a. The conduit is terminated in listed fittings.
b. For metric designators 12 through 16 (trade sizes through ½), the circuit conductors contained in the conduit are protected by overcurrent devices rated at 20 amperes or less.
c. For metric designators 21 through 35 (trade sizes ¾ through 1¼), the circuit conductors contained in the conduit are protected by overcurrent devices rated not more than 60 amperes and there is no flexible metal conduit, flexible metallic tubing, or liquidtight flexible metal conduit in trade sizes metric designators 12 through 16 (trade sizes through ½) in the ground-fault current path.
d. The combined length of flexible metal conduit and flexible metallic tubing and liquidtight flexible metal conduit in the same ground-fault current path does not exceed 1.8 m (6 ft).
e. If used to connect equipment where flexibility is necessary to minimize the transmission of vibration from equipment or to provide flexibility for equipment that requires movement after installation, an equipment grounding conductor shall be installed.
(7) Flexible metallic tubing where the tubing is terminated in listed fittings and meeting the following conditions:
a. The circuit conductors contained in the tubing are protected by overcurrent devices rated at 20 amperes or less.
b. The combined length of flexible metal conduit and flexible metallic tubing and liquidtight flexible metal conduit in the same ground-fault current path does not exceed 1.8 m (6 ft).
(eight) Armor of Type AC cable as provided in 320.108](http://code.necplus.org/document.php?field=jd&value=necss:70-2011:id02011006219#70-2011:id02011006219).
(9) The copper sheath of mineral-insulated, metal-sheathed cable.
(10) Type MC cable that provides an effective ground-fault current path in accordance with one or more of the following:

a. It contains an insulated or uninsulated equipment grounding conductor in compliance with 250.118](http://code.necplus.org/document.php?field=jd&value=necss:70-2011:id02011004403#70-2011:id02011004403)(1)
b. The combined metallic sheath and uninsulated equipment grounding/bonding conductor of interlocked metal tape–type MC cable that is listed and identified as an equipment grounding conductor
c. The metallic sheath or the combined metallic sheath and equipment grounding conductors of the smooth or corrugated tube-type MC cable that is listed and identified as an equipment grounding conductor
(11) Cable trays as permitted in 392.10](http://code.necplus.org/document.php?field=jd&value=necss:70-2011:id02011008439#70-2011:id02011008439) and 392.60](http://code.necplus.org/document.php?field=jd&value=necss:70-2011:id02011008541#70-2011:id02011008541).
(12) Cablebus framework as permitted in 370.3](http://code.necplus.org/document.php?field=jd&value=necss:70-2011:id02011007938#70-2011:id02011007938).
(13) Other listed electrically continuous metal raceways and listed auxiliary gutters.
(14) Surface metal raceways listed for grounding.
Informational Note: For effective ground-fault current path, see 250.2](http://code.necplus.org/document.php?field=jd&value=necss:70-2011:id02011003616#70-2011:id02011003616) Definition.

The singe equipment grounding is not landing on one of the 5 places outlined in 250.130© nor does the water pipe that it lands on meet any of the requirements of 250.118.

Therefore the conductor as pictured is in violation of the NEC and is useless and needs to be removed.

Bear with me, I’m learning, not arguing.

250.130©(1)[/size][/FONT]

250.52(A)(1) We have not established what the GE of this building consists of. It may very well be an undergound pipe. No?

If the underground water line was being used as an electrode, this connection for the EGC would need to connect within 5’ of the pipes entry into the house, not a nearby connection to the receptacle.

Understood, and I agree.

Better with a ground, but does that GFI really need to be grounded at all?

GFCI protection does not need to be grounded in order to function.

Lets just say for discussion sake that the GFCI is not grounded.

Would you note that it should have a label that lacks equipment ground?

Or a downstream receptacle, would you recommend a label that states “GFCI protected downstream”

Seems like I find a lot of double protected GFCI that can be interesting locating the protected GFCI. If the labels were placed on the cover it would reduce the number of double protected GFCI. Not that it is a problem other than reseting once the protected one is located.

Also what is with the light, some are on when off, or off when on. Why not make it one or the other. Huh!!

David, that is what code says to do and the instructions that come with the GFCI.

Seems like most are missing. Just typing. curious if others note this in the reports.

They are.

Write it up.

If it’s ungrounded on an older two-wire system (no ground available), I recommend appropriate labeling of the receptacles.

If it’s ungrounded on a modern system, I recommend that it be wired properly.