SOP...or not SOP

The NC sop says “State any systems or components so inspected that do not function as intended, etc”

Since an A/C system is intended to operate properly it would seem that we would have to know how to really check these.

It has this included in the A/C section:
“The home inspector is not required to:
Inspect the uniformity or adequacy of cool-air supply to the various rooms.”

Notice how it only disclaims the “supply to the various rooms” and not clearly the overall cool air supply…

Is this an oversight or a typical technique to leave a gray area so that it can be defined as needed for a particular possible future event?

Here is the NC A/C section:

.1112 AIR CONDITIONING
(a) The home inspector shall inspect:
(1) Central air conditioning and through-the-wall installed cooling systems including:
(A) Cooling and air handling equipment; and
(B) Normal operating controls.
(2) Distribution systems including:
(A) Fans, pumps, ducts and piping, with associated supports, dampers, insulation, air filters, registers, fan-coil units; and
(B) The presence or absence of an installed cooling source for each habitable space.

(b) The home inspector shall describe:
(1) Energy sources; and
(2) Cooling equipment type.
© The home inspector shall operate the systems using normal operating controls.
(d) The home inspector shall open readily openable access panels provided by the manufacturer or installer for routine homeowner maintenance

(e) The home inspector is not required to:
(1) Operate cooling systems when weather conditions or other circumstances may cause equipment damage;
(2) Inspect window air conditioners; or
(3) Inspect the uniformity or adequacy of cool-air supply to the various rooms.

Russel wants to write rules for inspectors who he perceives to be lazy. Russel knows that there are inspectors who do not belong in this profession. Russel runs a successful business. .But what Russel fails to understand is that a standard of practice helps ensure a duty of care.

For anyone who carries E&O insurance, you may be aware that upon notification of a pending lawsuit to the carrier, an adjustor or investigator will always ask which SOP you follow and if notification was included in your inspection agreement. There is a reason for this. Also, if there is a State Mandated SOP, your ability to obtain E&O and the price you pay may be affected by that very SOP. The more you are REQUIRED to inspect, the higher the chance you have of MISSING SOMETHING.

Once you write a rule and promise to follow it, you BETTER do what you say you do. We all exceed the SOP in one way or another, and depending on the client and the circumstances. When we start to advertise we exceed the SOP is where we start to run into trouble. And, if you develop your own, and profess to follow it, my advice would be to develop and follow a process by which you guarantee you do that in EVERY case.

Let’s take the refrigerator example… I may peek behing the refrigerator, but NEVER move it. When the floor gets scratched or the water line breaks after we leave the dwelling, I will be on the hook for the repair. When the seller proclaims that all was fine until YOU touched it, now the fridge doesnt work anymore, YOU will be stuck with the repair or the crappy reputation. And for what, exactly?

We, as professionals, already carry far too much liability for the pay we receive. Personal injury, sickness, damage to personal items, damage to appliances, perceived damage, failure to find a defect… whatever.

The SOP provides a minimum bar. Want to exceed it, fine. But, at least meet it, and when you cant, explain why.

Someone go back and look at what Keith Swift proposed for our new SOP. I killed it quicker than s%i# through a goose. Why? Because it was way to long, way to complicated, and served no real purpose. Aside from that, we had very bright people look at the NACHI SOP and agree with what it stated. In fact, we modified our COE to reflect that one needs to simply substantially compply with our SOP to not run afoul of the COE requirement. The majority of SOPs are pretty close to one another, and for good reason.

Change the SOP? I do not think so. Not at the whim of those few that participate in this message board as compared to the quantity of members we have.

I follow my state-mandated SOP, which substantially complies with NACHI’s. I will exceed it in instances where I believe it to be warranted. When I do, I have justification as to why I may have done it in this house, but not in the next.

Want to be a hero and inspect EVERYTHING? Be my guest. Just dont require me to do so. And the CMI designation is not representative of a different inspection PROCESS, just a level of experience.

The saddest fact of all is that we would likely garner a better reputation by baking cookies for clients, as opposed to performing a 4-hour inspection. Had one yesterday where the client told me that their last inspector did nothing like I did, and I simply followed the SOP.

Another well known inspector in my area performed an inspection on a 4500 sq. ft. dwelling in 40 minutes (a single inspector).

Unfoortunately, legislation wont fix this, a new SOP wont fix this, and the RE community will NEVER fix this.

The people with the legal duty to watch out for their clients is the RE agent and the attorney. It is not our job to protect the client. Sorry, but if you believe you do this, you are wrong. We are hired guns tasked with trying to figure out how a house lived over the past yesrs, in a 3-hour timeframe. We inspect and report to the best of our ability, following a recognized minimum standard. The client takes that data and shares it with an agent who is scared s%i^less that the deal will go south, and an attorney being paid a relatively small amount (in comparison to the sale commission).

Just do your job.

Well, Joe is the man and there is no changing it. I believe him to be wrong, but that is just my opinion and I just love to see when people say its not our job to protect the client. I think that is our ONLY job. Is to give the client a professional inspection so they can make an educated decision.

Maybe that is the largest division in our thinking. I am here to perform a service for a person who hires me because of my knowledge and professionalism, so that they can be INFORMED.

Maybe I am wrong, but if I am then I will continue to be wrong. An SOP that is updated can fix this and give the client a better inspection. How can it not? I understand the minimalists that want to stay within the minimum, but name another profession that does not evolve? I can think of none. But maybe its because we are not viewed a profession.

Is it my LEGAL duty to watch out for he client? No, I figure it is much more than that, it is my MORAL obligation.

But for those who are minimalists, it will show. The time a person spends on the house is not a good sampling as to the quality, it can be. But it is not always the case. I have seen guys spend hours and hours on a house, only because they are confused as to what they are doing.

But for the (I think) 109th time. Using only what you are required to report on the cooling of the AC, not the stuff you are NOT REQUIRED to do. How would you report it? Look at the standard and I have asked numerous times and never received a response. So to say, that we must keep within an SOP, and one that NICK cannot even answer is kinda stupid. If the founder and author of what 20 books and 100s of articles cannot answer the question, how would you expect an everage inspector to do so?

With Joes mentaility of scratching the floor, which is just stupid. We would never operate ANYTHING. The doors, the windows, the garage door, the GFCI’s, the AC, the Furnace…because ANYONE can say, it worked before you touched it.

Be so fearful of your job that you do an inferior job is an injustice to the people who pay us well to perform a professional service.

I guess that is where I am different, my clients are my number one concern and everyone else is themselves.

I love that this is a public thread and people see that no matter what our organization will evolve into nothing better than what it is right now and it is still exactly the same as it was in 1990 when it started.

I guess we just disagree on, well, just about everything.

That is some SAD stuff!

Russell, you need to read this again slowly and think it through.

Is it my LEGAL duty to watch out for he client? No, I figure it is much more than that, it is my MORAL obligation

This was my reponse, what is so hard about understanding my reponse. I agreed with him. Or do you have a problem with that too?

Instead of looking for any loophole to find fault go and relax, enjoy yourself. Because as usual you read what you want to read and beleive what you want to believe without seeing, seeking, or searching for one iota of facts. THINK then come to conclusion, not come to conclusion and then think…try it Mikey.

Show me that duty in FL law.

You are still mis characterizing the purpose and scope of the SOP and at the same time broad brushing inspectors and this organization as as somehow deficient.

You will never understand.:frowning:

Read the next word…It say’s NO…It was a question then I put a question mark and then I asnwered it with the next word…NO…

Just to keep that your such and idiot looking at things and reading and thinking before actually digesting the information given.

Read my post above you turkey.

:d :d :d :d :d

There is no helping Russell he has his mind made up.

He’s wrong but he doesn’t get it no matter how many times he is shown.

Then I will never understand.

For the 110th time…explain how to write up cooling according to the SOP using only the required section. You still haven’t done it, because it cannot be done in a manner which would acceptable by any standard.

You still never answer that question. So you sit and defend something that Nick, Joe, or YOU cannot report! To me that is just CRAZY…

Right after you print your change to the SOP :roll:

the Internachi nor the ASHI nor the proposed Florida SOP provides for an “inspection” of the HVAC. These guidelines only provide for a "documentation of what is existing, whether there are visible signs of deterioration and a notation of whether or not it cools within this range of 14 -22 degrees everyone espouses but really has no merit for cooling.

This is not an inspection which meets even the barest minimum utilized by ASHRAE or any HVAC contractor inspection checklist.

HI’s do not inspect the condenser, evaporator, take refrigerant readings, check for leaks with nitrogen gas or perform acid testing on the oils.

Based on our limited observations, all we can say is:

  1. it comes on and appears to cool or heat
  2. it is x years old and typically they last x years
  3. it appears to be black, white, tan or other

The problem with any SOP is they are not truly “inspection protocols” but are really “observations” or “documentations”.

On many homes I perform service/PM functions but I am qualified to do so (as Russell is - we both have EPA certs for refrigerants). A HI license does not cover this.

So, if the SOP were changed to include some primary inspection protocols such as acid testing the oils, the HI would have to have additional certifications.

Short of adding these inspection/testing items, the level of “inspection” will always be determined by the commitment and knowledge of the inspector. Some know and understand HVAC and most don’t. Some go the extra mile in their inspection, and most don’t.

Those inspectors who want to go the extra mile, will voluntarily obtain the additional certification needed and do it on their own. Most won’t.

You can’t add what Russell is proposing to the SOP without mandating additional licensure or somehow incorporating that certification into the HI license itself (at least in FL). I doubt he can sell that to the “Grand PooBah Council of non-elected Representatives”. They are still trying to develop a national standard for “washing dishes”.

I sell the additonal service as an add-on and it is readily taken up by those who are sure they are buying the home. Thus, I like it just the way it is as otherwise, I would have to do this extra work for free thanks to our thousands of idiot, low-ball, home inspectors in FL who don’t know the first thing about a home or any part of it. You know, the ones who issue 80 page reports of fluff and photos and recommend “have evaluated by a competent professional”.

Yes sir!

You can’t even work on HVAC if your in the HVAC business in Fla till you work under another company for a set period of time. (Prevents, “snow birds”)

Just give it up William!
Trying to make anyone realize that there are “other” licensed trades for this type of inspection is beyond perception here…

If you are HVAC certified; just keep doing what you do.

If your “part time” anything and a HI, it is my opinion that you should send this work in that direction, not do a half learned job!

And NO , I am not Union minded…

In Florida, the HI license is the most convoluted and unnecessary license I have ever heard of. It actually defrauds the public into thinking a HI is uniquely qualified to advise them of the condition of a home. Mark my word, the addition of thousands of unqualified inspectors will kill this profession in FL. In FL, if you want to be:

fire sprinkler contractor: at least two yrs OJT and pass exam(s)

home appraiser: at least four years OJT and pass exam(s)

septic contractor: at least 3 yrs OJT and pass exam

general contractor: at least 4 yrs supervisory OJT and pass exam

electric contractor: at least 4 yrs OJT, journeyman license and pass exam(s)

public adjuster: at least 2 yrs as all lines adjuster under supervision of public adjuster and pass exam(s)

mold assessor: 4 yr degree in specialized field and pass exam

plumbing contractor: at least 3 yrs OJT and pass exam(s)

roofing contractor: at least 3 yrs OJT and pass exam(s) for residential and commercial

mobile home installer: 2 yrs OJT, 2.5 day course and pass exam and post bond

certified safety professional: 4 yr degree, 96 months of OJT and pass two rigorous exams

home inspector: attend 3 day school and pass exam

I don’t have time to look it up but I believe it is harder to qualify to be a dog groomer than it is to be a home inspector! Screw up the dogs haircut and at least it should grow back; screw up a HI and the repurcussions may never be repaired for the buyer.

But, if we increase the qualifications necessary to be a HI, you won’t sell as many memberships or 3 day training sessions and THAT IS WHY we concentrate on making sure we RUN THE DISHWASHER in the SOP instead of concentrating on the things WE KNOW WE ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO INSPECT.

PRESS RELEASE - FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: The Grand PooBah Council for Home Inspectors in Florida, after months of agonizing and painstaking review and under the direction of Wayne Bertsch, the consumate lobbyist for the home inspection industry, has just adopted the most comprehensive and sweeping changes to the Florida SOP. EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY, all licensed Home Inspectors will TURN ON THE DISHWASHER. This policy is predicted to waste 3.2 million gallons of water, flood hundreds of vacant kitchens due to faulty but undiagnosed plumbing, and create significant opportunities for lawsuits but it will ensure future applicants for the HI license will not be delayed due to lack of experience or qualifications. According to the Grand PooBah, “homebuyers should rest easy knowing that it is mandatory for a HI to report on whether or not the dishwasher turned on. No more sleepless nights worrying over the $400 dishwasher replacement cost. Of course, the HI does not guarantee the dishwasher actually cleans the dishes or will work tomorrow but BY GOD AND THE GOVERNOR, you will know it turned on AT THE TIME OF INSPECTION.”

I never recommend, “have evaluated by a competent professional”. I am the competent professional. What say your qualifications fellow Inspector? I know, “I’m a graduate of AHIT”. LMAO.

Hey, it is what I pushed for 10 years ago, but no one wanted that. Now we have what we have and will have to work within it.

As for the dishwasher, etc., I test the home and every system in it and always have. That’s just me.

That has never appeared in one of my reports as I thought that is what I was there for.

That has never appeared in one of my reports as I thought that is what I was there for.

Good for you, Eric! You are not the type of HI I refer to:)!