Thanks for posting Dennis.
I haven’t been cursed with it yet!
Where does it end?
They gonna want to know if there’s termite damage/hole in the \roof to cause a $20K mold claim soon?
After considerable thought I believe you’ve nailed it. Forms will come & go and home inspectors have an obligation to correctly report our findings to “preserve the health, safety, and welfare of the public”.
My refusal to fill out the State Farm Four Point Form is predicated on the fact that to spend the time required to do it correctly (with a modicum of quality control) takes significantly more time than the NACHI or Citizen form would. Subsequently, I would not feel comfortable in filling out one for less than $250.
I believe with all the differing Four Point Forms it would be very difficult to substantiate a “Standard of Care” that most carriers would agree upon. I no longer perform stand alone Four Point or Wind Mitigations. I control my exposure by limiting these inspections to clients who are purchasing a home. I use only the OIR or Citizen forms and the inspections are complementary, I do not charge for them. If those forms aren’t acceptable then they can hire someone else to do those inspections. My license does not obligate me to any insurance company, only the State of Florida can compel me to fill out a specific form.
A four point is NOT a home inspection by state definition.
Eric, These are the people and situations where a “home inspection” license is not required or the adherance to the statutes of our licensing. It’s not theory, it’s fact vs fiction:
*468.831 Exemptions.—**The following persons are not required to comply with any provision of this part: *
(1) An authorized government employee of the United States, this state, or any municipality, county, or other political subdivision who is conducting home inspection services within the scope of that employment, as long as the employee does not hold out for hire to the general public or otherwise engage in home inspection services.
(2) A person acting within his or her authorized scope of practice as licensed under federal, state, or local codes or statutes, except when such person holds himself or herself out for hire to the public as a “certified home inspector,” “registered home inspector,” “licensed home inspector,” “home inspector,” “professional home inspector,” or any combination thereof stating or implying licensure under this part.
(3) An officer appointed by the court.
(4) A person performing safety inspections of utility equipment in or on a home or building or other duties conducted by or for a utility under chapter 366 or rules adopted by the Public Service Commission.
(5) A certified energy auditor performing an energy audit of any home or building or other duties conducted by or for a utility under chapter 366 or rules adopted by the Public Service Commission.
History.—s. 2, ch. 2007-235.
There is one thing we agree upon, it is “theory” to think I’m wrong, The OIR will nt issue clarification becuase they want the stautues of our licensing to determine what is and isn’t required…that’s why we are licensed in the first place. A 4-point is a home inspection with exclusions, you are required to notify your buyer of the exclusions 24 hours in advance…period. That’s why most home inspectin agreements are invalid, per you licensing you must send a copy of your state licnese AND any/all exclusions “prior to contracting for or commencing a home inspection”. It always surprises me what little people understand about their licensing and the statutes that goven them.
468.8321 Disclosures.—Prior to contracting for or commencing a home inspection, a home inspector shall provide to the consumer a copy of his or her license to practice home inspection services in this state and a written disclosure that contains the scope and any exclusions of the home inspection.
History.—s. 2, ch. 2007-235.
**
Anthing other than what is written in the statutes of our licensing is strictly speculation based on uninformed opinion.
Yes it is, it’s a home inspection with exclusions…and as stated in FSS 468.8321, you must report this “prior to contracting for or commencing a home inspection”.
*468.8321 Disclosures.—Prior to contracting for or commencing a home inspection, a home inspector shall provide to the consumer a copy of his or her license to practice home inspection services in this state and a written disclosure that contains the scope and any exclusions of the home inspection. *
History.—s. 2, ch. 2007-235.
This is actual language from the citizens website detailing how a Wind mitigation inspection shoul be performed:
- The InspectionBefore the inspection begins, give your inspector copies of any mitigation documents you have; the inspector will include these documents in the inspection report.
The inspector will perform a comprehensive inspection of your home and property, including:
[LIST]
- The home’s basic structure and construction materials
- Roof shape, materials, condition and connections
- Wall construction
- Exterior and garage doors, windows and skylights
- Storm shutters/panels (installed or stored on the property)
- Attic interior
[/LIST]
Doesn’t this sound a lot like a home inspection?
That form blows, charge double.
I think its beyond the scope, but it is easy enough to fill out.
Your state standards do not limit you, they give you a basis for minimal practice. NOTHING is really “beyond the scope” of a home inspection. I know people who are licensed home inspectors that are engineeers, architects, CGCs, etc…You are only limited by your education and training, not your standards. period!
Looks like most of you guys are missing the point of what Robert is saying, or do not want to admit to it. James and Eric are the only ones that seem to understand it. Opinions in this matter will mean nothing. Eventually it will be settled in court and then a precedent will be set.
A while back, about three years ago I posted about a wind mitigation where the inspector was sued for marking straps when there were no straps. On the re-inspection the second guy got it right. The first inspector got sued and everyone on this board said there was no way he could lose. Most of the comments were that it was an old form and the client had benefited from the error for three years. Well, that case, too, never made it to court. His lawyer advised him to settled. It cost him $5000.00. So this stuff does happen. And it will happen again. Happy inspecting everyone
Blow, in this case is merely a figure of speech, I believe the word you are reaching for is suck… And still, $100 is far too cheap as the completed State Farm Form is a reasonable facsimile of a home inspection which could equip an astute buyer with enough knowledge to make a informed financial decision, thus bypassing the need for a full home inspection entirely. :lol:
Blow, in this case is merely a figure of speech, I believe the word you are reaching for is suck… And still, $100 is far too cheap as the completed State Farm Form is a reasonable facsimile of a home inspection which could equip an astute buyer with enough knowledge to make a informed financial decision thus bypassing the need for a state defined home inspection entirely. :lol:
No, it sounds like a specific list of items to be inspected. It does not include all portions of the system, roof for instance.
Furthermore, the SoP does not require the type of roof to wall connection or nailing pattern to be inspected.
Standards of Practice, Roof Covering.
(1) Roof covering systems and components include the
following:
(a) Roofing materials;
(b) Flashings;
(c) Skylights, chimneys, and roof penetrations;
(d) Roof drainage systems;
(e) Ventilation of attics; and
(f) Insulation of attics.
(2) The inspector shall inspect all of the visible and readily
accessible roof covering systems and components.
61-30.802 Standards of Practice, Structure.
(1) Structural system and components include the following:
(a) Foundation;
(b) Floor structure;
(c) Wall structure;
(d) Ceiling structure;
(e) Roof structure;
(f) Posts;
(g) Beams;
(h) Columns;
(j) Joists;
(k) Rafters;
(l) Trusses;
(m) Other framing; and
(n) Ventilation of foundation areas.
(2) The inspector shall inspect all of the visible structural systems and components by probing structural components where deterioration
is visible or suspected or where clear indications of possible deterioration exist. Probing is not required when, in the opinion
of the inspector, probing would only further damage any area already identified as defective or where no deterioration is visible or
presumed to exist.
These standards do not apply to a wind mitigation inspection. The wm inspection is not required to meet the minimum standards. It is specific in its intent.
The form itself is worded in a way where if one got to court, you would lose.
Back to the 4-point. I don’t think legally, it wold be considered a home inspection. I have inspected houses that were previously inspected and a 4-point was done. When they got a copy of my 4-point, they were upset as there were vast differences in the reports.
I rarely do a stand alone 4-point…because I charge $450.00.
In order to find all visible hazards or deficiencies, you have to inspect each system.
You are drastically misinterpreting the standards Eric, respectfully. As I have said before, there are many terms and phrases that get thrown around the home inspection arena. One of the more misused terms is “limited visual inspection”, this term appears no place in our standards other than continuing education. With the case in mind, if you are supplying wind mitigations with your home inspections…it’s already assumed you are perfomring a code inspection as you are “verifying code compliance” with that form. There are no limits to a home inspection, this needs to be pounded into everyone’s head.
One other issue with common misconseptions of our standards, the thought process that the inspector “shall not” or “is prohibited from” performing his/her inspection to a higher standards. It doesn’t exist. What the standards do say is that the inspector shall not put himself in harms way or do something that could harm the occupants of the structure. That’s it. Everything else is “shall inspect” or “is not required to”…
Do you sign that form under the title “home inspector”? Are there any statutes or laws that define “home inspector”? Statute 468! Nothing in the statues or licensing of our occupation reinforces your opinion, but they do support mine. The exceptions are listed…and 4-points/wind mitigations, or the inspectors who perform them under the HI licensure, are not listed under exclusions.
Definition of “roof covering/roofing system” as listed in the Florida Building Code:
**ROOF ASSEMBLY. **A system designed to provide weather protection and resistance to design loads. The system consists of a roof covering and roof deck or a single component serving as both the roof covering and the roof deck. A roof assembly includes the roof deck, vapor retarder, substrate or thermal barrier, insulation, vapor retarder, and roof covering. **
ROOF COVERING.** The covering applied to the roof deck for weather resistance, fire classification or appearance.
That should cover everything!**
**
Citizens are not the creators of a wind mitigation report. So what they say really should not matter they have to accept it if done as per forms directions, "oh yeah unless they want more info…wonder how that got in there?. The OIR should be the ones making such comments. The OIR needs to be totally disbanded get rid of everyone associated with it and rebuild it from the ground up with the intent and power to REGULATE THE INSURANCE Companies.
Citizens is giving or taking away credits based on what you report…so what they say shouldn’t matter? The form asks you if the structure was built in compliance with the code. If it was anything other than that, they could call the building department themselves and exclude the middle man. You say one thing based off of your opinion…statute, courts, and I say another. Who do you think is going to win that one?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I was under the assumption that State Farm had negotiated a fixed price of $50 for their four point inspections from a state wide firm where the inspector received a total of $100… $50 from the customer and $50 from State Farm, no?
I never heard it and sure as hell would not do it 
Not sure if State Farm is offering this, but I did hear that other carriers use large inspection firms for their 4pts and split the fee with the policyholders (I think USAA does this). I believe this is also done for preliminary sinkhole surveys, but not with Citizens Ins.
I wouldn’t do a State Farm 4pt for $100 though.