taps off the meter base

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1

Originally Posted By: jremas
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Is it ok to have a junction box inside the home directly from the meter base with compression taps splitting off to different 100A main panels? The SC is rated for 200A and there are two 100A panels in the home. Inside the junction box are some taps with electrical tape on them. Thoughts on this for residential? Only 1 meter by the way. The second 100A panel is a main & not a subpanel.

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Jeff Remas
REMAS Inspections, Inc.
Northeastern PA & the Poconos
www.NEPAinspector.com

570-362-1598
2

Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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Typically, there is a distribution trough which comes along with this type of installation. I have seen it with 400A main service split across 2 main panels. That may explain your junction box. Out troughs are tagged, and access is the same as tampering with the meter seal.


As I stated, here in Rockland, the distribution trough is also tagged by the electric company, though installed by the electrician. So, from a distribution standpoint with 2 mains, and no subs, it sounds okay. The electrical tape seems a bit bizarre, though...

--
Joe Farsetta

Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."

3

Originally Posted By: Dennis Bozek
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Jeff…


I am trying to understand what you have asked here. It sounds to me that what you have is a meter base with 200 amp wire leading into a junction box, whereas in this junction box you have a splice which then powers up 2 separate 100 amp panels...if that is what you are saying then this would be my answer....

Absolutely not!!!

Reason being is that the only protection on those subfeeds is the transformer at the utility pole. Even in a commercial application, wires would be bugged off of the main but the main is typically fused....with this situation the only fuses you have protecting either subfeed are at the utility pole. What should be done is that a 200 amp panel is installed and then from the 200 amp panel, 2 separate breakers, each at 100 amps, feeding each individual panel. Now protection is in place for both panels and the wires leading to them. Think about how you de-energize power in this house as well. If both panels are not next to each other...would a stranger know that power is off...if he shuts off one 100amp panel not realizing there is a second somewhere? With a 200 amp disconnect in place, all that would have to be done to shut off power would be to shut off the 200 amp main breaker. If you ask me there is no way to turn off the power to this house unless you turn off each main breaker for each panel if you know exactly where each panel is!! Think of the fireguy....when the house catches on fire....he sees the meter and then locates the panel....but wait..there is more than one panel.....does he know this?? Probably and possibly not! Not a good situation if you ask me...and as a sparky I would not only flag the homeowner for this, I would bop him on the head as well ![icon_eek.gif](upload://yuxgmvDDEGIQPAyP9sRnK0D0CCY.gif) Install the 200 amp panel and protect your subfeeds and your subpanel with two separate 100 amp breakers located in the 200 amp panel....thats my answer but I am sure I will get beat up on it

I would flag this and recommend inspection by a qualified sparky.

--
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4

Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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Dennis,


I have to differ with you, here.

Here are some photos of an installation I am speaking of.

There is a transformer on the corner of the property, a single electrical meter. a tagged box which has been sealed by the local electrical company, a small trough beneath the panels, and two 200-ampere main panels.

![](upload://azC6kSy8KLRLC2GXqfJE3clAaAO.jpeg)


There are disconnects within each panel, but nothing "upstream from each. The square panel has a cover, but is sealed by the power company. No access is allowedr. It goes to te electrical meter pan. There is only a single meter.




You'll also notice that the panels are mounted upside down. This was to allow floor-standing access to the main disconnect breakers without the need for a stepladder.




--
Joe Farsetta

Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."

5

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Joe F.


I have to agree with Dennis on this one, his way is a much safer installation.

Joe Myers

6

Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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We’re not talking about someone’s opinion of what safe is. We’re talking as to what is permitted. In the example I’ve submitted, what’s unsafe about it? The panels are co-located and power to the home is disconnected with the throw of 2 breakers.


I question what Jeff described originally, with a plain junction box and electrical tape wrapped at the tap. This seems hokey, but the actual pracice is okay. The execution is suspect. That's the questionable part.

--
Joe Farsetta

Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."

7

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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I do not believe either Dennis or myself have suggested that either installation was not permitted (allowed, for those of us on Zoloft). I said it was SAFER!


JOE, DOES ZOLOFT MAKE YOU DEAF? ![icon_cool.gif](upload://oPnLkqdJc33Dyf2uA3TQwRkfhwd.gif)

Joe Myers

8

Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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No…


It maked you mellow.... Imagine if I WASN'T on it...

--
Joe Farsetta

Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."

9

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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Dennis Bozek wrote:
I would flag this and recommend inspection by a qualified sparky.


I dont agree with that, and I am with Joe F on this one. NEC 408.16 and 240.21 allow the tap feeders to be protected at the panels. That assumes it doesnt "violate" the 10'/25' rule (not likely).

FYI ... Although not applicable in this case, the NEC actually seems to permit an existing individual service panel to be installed without any main breaker/fuse (see NEC 408.16X2) ... ![icon_eek.gif](upload://yuxgmvDDEGIQPAyP9sRnK0D0CCY.gif)

NEC 408.16 wrote:
Exception No. 2: For existing installations, individual protection for lighting and appliance branch-circuit panelboards shall not be required where such panelboards are used as service equipment in supplying an individual residential occupancy.


hmmmmmmm ... interesting! Why then flag a single existing panel without a main breaker ... is it assumed that the fuse at the utility transformer protects the drop and the SEC ... what about the 6 switch rule ... how could this be (I know firemen actually take out the meters in a fire ... but still) ... hmmmmm

Dennis ... where is that handy NEC quide we were gonna chip in to get you, and how does this existing install "violate" the NEC?

Rob

10

Originally Posted By: Dennis Bozek
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Hmmm…wellllll…that is a pretty “hooterville” install there…and yea I know about that 6 breaker thingy…lol…you got me on that one though…read those articles and I agree with RC…hey I’m a sparky and don’t claim to know it all…at least I think I do. Anyway…I am also a old commercial sparky…sometimes the two get confused in my noggin…nevertheless…RC is correct…but I’d still flag the thing…to me it is just not the way to do it even if Mr NEC says it is ok. It would be ok to recommend a sparky come out and check it out anyway. And Joe…I gotta tell ya…I have never seen such a install in all my years of sparkydom. I’ve worked on the right and left coast too…and never seen such a thing. Ok I stand corrected…I owe you one now RC eusa_doh.gif

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11

Originally Posted By: gweil
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My thoughts on this installation is, it is a acceptable installation as found with exception to the two service disconnects being mounted upside down. This is a NEC violation and should be noted. These devices are required to be “on” when in the up position. Some manufactures make panels that can be mounted in either position top main or bottom main. Some Molded Case Circuit breakers can be turned over to fit this buss. At any rate the recommendation of further investigation by a electrician is warrented.

12

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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RC,


I did not say it was not legal, just plain stupid from my own personal experience. Mostly I see this in commercial applications in Philadelphia. Three phase running into a hot trough, from there they run into the meter base and onto the panels.

I wish I would have saved the pictures form the last one that I inspected, I would not even touch it. The trough was severly corroded and rusted, attached directly to the stone foundation of what used to be a restaurant, with two tenant buildings above it. When I told the client and agent that I would not touch it, the agent reached his hand to touch the trough cover, lucky for him I was right there and grabbed his hand. I pulled out my voltage tester and it lit up like a christmas tree.

While I do have a pretty thorough understanding of electric and the NEC, this kind of installation has no place in a residence AND I DO MEAN NONE! In a commercial you typically have an room dedicated to this type of equipment installation where access is usually limited to certain persons. That does not hold true in a residence. Further, I am there to save lives, not put them at risk. I would not want to explain to the fireman's wife and kids their daddy is dead because this installation was ok according to the NEC, just as I refuse to explain it to the parents of the dead children.

Sometimes you have to rise above the minimum (THE NEC) and use your head, not the book.

Joe Myers

13

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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JM … I agree we are talking about “safety issues” here and not code compliance, but the codes can be used as a guide as to what really is a safety issue for an HI … unless common sence dictates otherwise (as in our posts on a WM next to a panel).


I am trying to see the logic that you and Dennis are following to conclude that two panels with tap feeders is a safety issue in general (assuming the service is installed correctly and maintained ... just like anything else).

What is difference in terms of safety of a service feeder coming in to a single panel, versus a split feeder to two panels in a residential installation? In both cases the feeders are protected at the main panel(s), where the service is bonded/grounded.

[Hold on to your hat Dennis, and lets see where this goes first]

Rob ![](upload://oxE5PdBzZ7CsRErF0KNOgZqGD1F.gif)

14

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Robert,


That would really depend on how it was installed. My main concern would be is that in a residential setting their would no way to de-energize the trough except by having the electric company cut the service cable on the exterior of the house. I don't know about your electric company but around here they don't do anything fast, you could expect an hour minimum AND I DO MEAN MINIMUM! ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif) That means you can forget about original, we are talking extra crispy!

In a case where the meter is on the exterior of the house and the trough could be de-energized by simply pulling the meter, I would not have as much of a problem with it but I would still frown upon this in a residential setup.

Firemen as we all know love to pull the meter to cut off the electricity to the house. In the case where it enters the trough first, then off to the meters and then to the panels the firemen would be more likely to assume he cut off the power to the entire place unless they were all grouped together in the same spot. The same would hold true for the panels, they may assume the power was off unless the panels were all grouped together. Those are assumptions that could cost them their lives.

Since I am not in the habit of killing those that spend their lives protecting mine, I would tell them to shove the NEC up their A$$ and fix it. Know what I mean?

On a more personal note, I do believe the codes, as well intentioned as they are, still leave room for improvement since they are the minimum. I also believe if you idiot proof things you end up with a bunch of idiots.

If you are willing to give me some more time to think about this I am sure I could come up with at least one or two more things that I could pick on as safety issues, not necessarily code issues.

Joe Myers

15

Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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Joe,


It goes to a single meter, then a distribution trough, then to the dual panels. Pull the meter and the house is dead.

Dennis, with all due respect, this kind of install is doner all the time on large homes out my way (like 5000 sg ft +). So, maybe it's you who have been in Hooterville too long.

Once again, you flag things as fact, when in reality its an acceptable practice. Why would you flag this for an electrical contractor to look at? As I stated, this was an inspected and approved install. What in the he11 is an electrician going to say? There was a single meter on the exterior of the home, There was a distribution trough on the interior of the home, which was controlled by the local power company. It is considered to be an extension from the meter pan, I suppose, as it was sealed by them. If the installation was unsatisfactory to the power company, even if it passed the muster of the code official, the power company would refuse to energize the house. So, in fact, this installation was acceptabe to the NY Board of Fire Underwriters, as well as Orange and Rockland Utilities, which is under the guidelines of their owner Con Ed.

Con Ed powers NY City, and last I checked, NY wasn't Hooterville...

--
Joe Farsetta

Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."

16

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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JM … I understand your concern and the issue of safety for firemen … part of the reason for the 6 switch and 10’/25’ tap rules, and the reason a local power company will usually only give a building one service drop/lateral.


I have seen some pretty bad rats nest service rooms for a few NYC commercial buildings where I was pretty concerned about firemen shutting down the service. But fire fighters/officials I talked to indicated they do it all the time and it's not a problem if the rules are followed. Some of them still rub me the wrong way though, and I make a note of that.

But for a residential service with one meter and split feeders to double panels as Jeff indicated, I still don't see an issue. I am still with JF here that there is nothing to flag on this install.

Rob ![](upload://oxE5PdBzZ7CsRErF0KNOgZqGD1F.gif)

17

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Robert,


You are certainly misunderstanding me when you state there is nothing here to flag. I am not saying anything about code violations, I thought I had made that pretty clear.

As Joe F. stated the service cables go to the meter first, thus pulling the meter would de-energize the electric to the trough and the panels. Not as bad in my book but not an install without any concern.

If the trough is low enough for kids to tamper with, I would still flag it. My reasoning is a simple one. Kids are curious, place those little colored tags on the trough and it will soon disappear. A larger concern would be that they would start removing screws so they can explore the unknown. KIDS EXPLORE, its a given.

Having eight children I understand child behavior and the fact that parents, no matter whether they are good parents or bad parents can not watch children every minute of the day. There just is no way of knowing which will get curious or at what age.

If it were only adults moving in, I would simply give the client a warning that there is power in there unless the meter is pulled (even if they turn off the main breakers at the panels), just in case they would decide to follow the Bob Vila and the Big Orange trend that has come over many home owners in this DIY world.

I believe you when you state you would not flag this installation. I on the other hand would depending on the installation. I am not a NEC code enforcement official, I am there to keep my clients safe from those that would not know safe if it hit them in the face going 100 MPH.

I do it the simple way, I put it in writing. If someone else is willing to put it in writing that they defy my logic, I leave it go at that and move on. Certainly anyone that understands the codes, understands they are there to improve the safety of installations and no matter how hard you try, you just can not cover everything making them the minimum installation requirements.

I once read an inspector state they had a contractor that build homes according to code. Their response was, "how does it feel to build homes to the minimum standards"?

NUF SAID!

Joe Myers

18

Originally Posted By: Dennis Bozek
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Hooterville Electric??


Out here, homes that are 5000 sq ft or more do not have such archaic installations. Most commonly a 400 amp or 800 amp service is installed. (In fact here in Hooterville I even seen a 1200 amp service in a house...but then the house was like 35,000 sq feet and I think it belonged to the mayor of Hooterville.) From this service the wires are run into a main distribution panel (MDP) which has a series of disconnects in it. These disconnects control main lug panels typically at 200 amps a piece. So there is no guesswork when one looks at it. It's plain to see the way it installed and what...main breaker...will kill the entire house. Never seen that install anywhere in a residential environment. It's not that you or I may be in Hooterville, Joe, but more than likely that different states adapts different codes for their own purposes. Besides, if I was really in Hooterville....I'd probably wouldn't see a electrical panel anyway...just a large treadmill and a family of hamsters would cover it.

--
This information has been edited and reviewed for errors by your favorite resident sparky.

19

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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He** Dennis,


You really are behind the times over there in Hooterville. We use the wheels with squirrels. ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)

Joe Myers

20

Originally Posted By: Dennis Bozek
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icon_lol.gif Well Joe before the hamsters we were really sophisicated…we used a waterfall to generate trons…but that was only good if it rained…which is not a problem here in Ohio cuz it rains here even when the sun is shining In fact Ohio records the least amount of days when the sun does shine icon_lol.gif

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