Originally Posted By: randerson1
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http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/more/electrical%20box1.jpg ]
http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/more/electrical%20box1.jpg ]
Originally Posted By: Brian A. Goodman
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Weird. I’ve never seen one of those, what brand is it?
Anything with fuses gets an notation about "design that has been obsolete for many years", but if there's nothing else wrong I don't go crazy about it. If there are complimentary issues I start to lean harder on a replacement recommendation.
Originally Posted By: jpope
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The 40 amp service is a good place to start. Today’s standards suggest that a single family home should be equipped with a minimum of 100 service amps.
The fuses would be next. These can be considered as a safety concern as a 50 amp fuse can easily be placed in a circuit designed for only 15 amps.
Are there two "mains," on parallel feeds? Or is there one main somewhere? There may be fused neutrals in that configuration. Did you pull the cover and check?
The worms nest at the top of the panel is quite beautiful 
--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
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Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley
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That panel sure looks like it would have more than 40 amp service. Do you have any pictures of the panel with the cover off?
Originally Posted By: Ryan Jackson
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| jpope wrote: |
|
The fuses would be next. These can be considered as a safety concern as a 50 amp fuse can easily be placed in a circuit designed for only 15 amps. |
Jeff, although I understand your concern, the same could be said of a circuit breaker. The type of moron that removes and replaces a fuse with an oversized one is the same type of moron that will do it with a breaker.
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Ryan Jackson, Salt Lake City
Originally Posted By: jpope
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True Ryan, but these fuses are much more inviting than a circuit breaker. The circuit breaker trips two or three times a month and can be reset. The fuse blows once or twice and the moron is tired of driving to Home Depot each time and decides to get a bigger fuse or stick a penny under the blown fuse
–
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
“At JPI, we’ll help you look better”
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Originally Posted By: randerson1
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The panel is a square D. The picture I took of the inside of the panel for some reason will not download but it was indeed a 40 amp service. I too was surprised when I checked the panel. What I stated in my report was that the panel needed to be inspected by a certified electrician determine if there were any code violations and to determine if the service was adequate for the home. My opinion was that it wasn’t but I would never state that in any report as I could only see problems down the rod with this system.
Originally Posted By: roconnor
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fused panel. Have the client check with an insurance carrier also on coverage if the safety adapters are not installed.
Just my 2-nickels and opinion ... 
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Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
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NACHI Education Committee
I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
Originally Posted By: jmcginnis
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Robert makes a very good point about the insurance company… many companies will not insure a home with fuses no matter what. Also, that may very well be a “split” bus panel since it has both fuses and breakers… what size are the SE conductors? I think you have more than a 40amp service there. The 40 amp portion is probably just for the lighting circuits and convenience outlets.
Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley
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I see what looks like a large service cable, possibly a #1 at the top of the panel. I would almost bet it’s a split buss panel with 100 amp service (or more). But, I wasn’t there.
Originally Posted By: jpope
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| roconnor wrote: |
| Jeff ... Fuses are actually more reliable than breakers for protection of circuits. |
I don't doubt this. But the reality is that the general public cannot be relied upon to make the "safest" decisions with regard to maintenance of their homes. This is simply due to a lack of awareness to potential dangers/hazards.
The fuse adapters were developed exactly for that reason - too many people were replacing fuses with a larger size to avoid blowing the fuse. Not understanding that the fuse is a protective device and is indicating a potential hazard.
The average layman will not fiddle with the wires of a circuit to change a breaker for fear of being shocked by the bare wires. A fuse is not very intimidating and easily replaced as is evident in the pictures (a hodge-podge of brands and sizes).
--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738
Originally Posted By: roconnor
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wrong and dangerous … like installing a larger breaker. Then the homeowner is on their own … and sometimes Darwin’s Theory then kicks in …
For those not familial with Type-S rejection base fuses that only allow the correct size fuse to be used, here is a pic of a typical adapter that gets screwed into the standard edison base socket (internal size depends on the correct Type-S fuse rating).
With these Type-S adapters in place, it's not possible to inadvertently (or intentionally) install an oversized fuse. They should be installed in EVERY fused panel. Then I think the panel is actually safer (just not as convenient), and I would prefer that in my own home.
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Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
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NACHI Education Committee
I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Jeff P,
What is with the new pic with the "clean" look? Are you getting self conscious about your age? 
Joe Myers
Originally Posted By: jpope
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The photographer took ten years off me I guess that’s the difference between DIY and professional photography FYI - 39 as of 10/1
--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738
Originally Posted By: roconnor
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P.S. … I actually think that breaker panels are unsafe as compared to fused panels … put that one in your pipe and smoke on it for a bit …
Just because a technology is old, doesnt mean it is inferior.
--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee
I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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I am betting that is a split bus panel. The 120v loads are on one side and the 240v loads on the other. They can have up to 6 disconnects.
I am also not as sanguin about type S adapters. A 15 is fine but the 20a adapter will also take a 30!
Originally Posted By: roconnor
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| Greg Fretwell wrote: |
| I am also not as sanguin about type S adapters. A 15 is fine but the 20a adapter will also take a 30! |
Not really following ... a 30A Type-S plug fuse can't be installed in a 20A Type-S adapter because the threads are different (NEC 240.53B). It also can't be easily tampered with (such as the old penny shunting).
Also current model codes require Type-S fuses for all new installations, and existing installations if there are any signs of tampering (NEC 240.52).
--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee
I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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| roconnor wrote: | ||
Not really following ... a 30A Type-S plug fuse can't be installed in a 20A Type-S adapter because the threads are different (NEC 240.53B). It also can't be easily tampered with (such as the old penny shunting). Also current model codes require Type-S fuses for all new installations, and existing installations if there are any signs of tampering (NEC 240.52). |
http://www.bussmann.com/library/bifs/1032.pdf
Look on the left side about half way down at "adapters" and look at the S-30. Then look at the fuses it takes. The reason I know is I have a bag of 30s I got out of my neighbor's panel and I screwed in 20s. They should all be 15s but I don't have the tool to pull the adapter.
Originally Posted By: roconnor
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Okay … so the wrong Type-S adapter was installed there. If ya look at the Bussman cut under SA-20 it will only take a 20A fuse. A 30A fuse will not fit in the 20A adapter (as it should be …
).The adapter should be clearly marked ... like the pic I posted above of a Bussman SA-15 plug fuse adapter.
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Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
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NACHI Education Committee
I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
Originally Posted By: gwells
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Robert,
How did you determine it to be a 40 Amp service?
40 Amps has never been a standard service size in the US. The standards were 15A, 30A, 60A and later, 100A. That looks like a 100 Amp service with four main disconnects to me.
These boxes were very common. There are probably many thousands of them still in service. Typically, there is one main that serves the fuses, and three for the large 240V loads. Most of the panels were installed in the 1960's. As far as I know, the panels were not built with Type S fuses. I cannot tell from the photograph, but if you look closely, I'd guess that you will see S adapters.
Most of you are probably familiar with the "six motions of the hand" rule. When I started my apprenticeship in the early 70's that rule had already been in effect for many years.
The panel could still be installed today and be acceptable according to the NEC. That is, unless it really is a 40 amp service panel.
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George
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