Testing GFCI breakers

[rlewis5 (Roy Lewis, CERTIFIED MASTER INSPECTOR RETIRED)]

In the homes I build I uses GFCI breakers. Whole circuit protected.

[mlarson (Michael Larson, WI Lic. # 1672-106)]

@mclark2

Splitting hairs. :roll: Hazardous to what? Plants? Paint? A watch?

Any level is hazardous.

No hairs split.

You either understand what a hazardous current to humans is or you don’t.

Now I don’t expect HIs to understand the topic to its fullness but I also don’t expect HIs to make unsubstantiated “hazard” claims.

[rlewis5 (Roy Lewis, CERTIFIED MASTER INSPECTOR RETIRED)]

A spit ball or a 45 slug ! which one is the hazard.

[mclark2 (Michael Clark, CMI)]

@mlarson

Please explain.

C’mon Mike, don’t make me explain the theory of electrical current to you, I know that you know. Just think of an open grounded condition upstream of the GFCI, and someone is touching the metal junction box when you induce current to the EGC. Again, extremely unlikely, but possible.

You can figure it out. I’m on my way to an inspection. I will test every single receptacle, and will not be using the three light to trip GFCI’s.

I’ll try and time it for you.

[mclark2 (Michael Clark, CMI)]

@mlarson

No hairs split.

You either understand what a hazardous current to humans is or you don’t.

Now I don’t expect HIs to understand the topic to its fullness but I also don’t expect HIs to make unsubstantiated “hazard” claims.

Hope nobody was confused about what “hazardous” is, now that we have determined “humans” :roll:

I hate my wife’s cat. Maybe the cat is up for testing…:mrgreen:.

[mlarson (Michael Larson, WI Lic. # 1672-106)]

@mclark2

C’mon Mike, don’t make me explain the theory of electrical current to you, I know that you know. Just think of an open grounded condition upstream of the GFCI, and someone is touching the metal junction box when you induce current to the EGC. Again, extremely unlikely, but possible.

You can figure it out. I’m on my way to an inspection. I will test every single receptacle, and will not be using the three light to trip GFCI’s.

I’ll try and time it for you.

Yes I do.

But from your unsubstantiated claims I have my doubts about your understanding.

What in a GFCI can produce an open ground condition on “upstream” devices"?

Perhaps that is not what you meant.

I’m trying to be nice.

[mlarson (Michael Larson, WI Lic. # 1672-106)]

@mclark2

Hope nobody was confused about what “hazardous” is, now that we have determined “humans” :roll:

I hate my wife’s cat. Maybe the cat is up for testing…:mrgreen:.

Still waiting for an explanation from you.

[ccurrins (Christopher Currins, CMI)]

You guys got it all wrong. Wet finger test is the preferred method.

[mlarson (Michael Larson, WI Lic. # 1672-106)]

@ccurrins

You guys got it all wrong. Wet finger test is the preferred method.

Please jump in chris.

Maybe you can help Mr. Clark.

[mclark2 (Michael Clark, CMI)]

@mlarson

Please jump in chris.

Maybe you can help Mr. Clark.

lol. I’ve used the wet finger method myself, but on a magneto, to see which hole is number 1 on the cyl cap!

Mr. Larson, I don’t need help. Please try and keep up.

The GFCI does not cause the open ground, the open grnd is already there.

Now use the 3 light, and induce voltage while Little Johnny is upstream, back against the wall, against the metal box with no outlet cover…

think…I know you can do it…I’m trying to be nice

[mlarson (Michael Larson, WI Lic. # 1672-106)]

@mclark2

lol. I’ve used the wet finger method myself, but on a magneto, to see which hole is number 1 on the cyl cap!

Mr. Larson, I don’t need help. Please try and keep up.

The GFCI does not cause the open ground, the open grnd is already there.

Now use the 3 light, and induce voltage while Little Johnny is upstream, back against the wall, against the metal box with no outlet cover…

think…I know you can do it…I’m trying to be nice

You have made a number of erroneous and unsupported statements that will only confuse other home inspectors.

Your understanding is now even more suspect.

You were given a chance to enlighten all you balked and claimed you needed nothing.

It is not I that is lacking knowledge or understanding.

BTW-are you related to kevin wood?

[rlewis5 (Roy Lewis, CERTIFIED MASTER INSPECTOR RETIRED)]

@mlarson

BTW-are you related to kevin wood?

Ouch !

[mlarson (Michael Larson, WI Lic. # 1672-106)]

@rlewis5

Ouch !

Can you explain it?

[rlewis5 (Roy Lewis, CERTIFIED MASTER INSPECTOR RETIRED)]

@mlarson

Can you explain it?

I’m no expert, but his statements are convoluted at best.

[mclark2 (Michael Clark, CMI)]

@mlarson

You have made a number of erroneous and unsupported statements that will only confuse other home inspectors.

Your understanding is now even more suspect.

You were given a chance to enlighten all you balked and claimed you needed nothing.

It is not I that is lacking knowledge or understanding.

BTW-are you related to kevin wood?

Keep digging at everyone and eventually you may come up with an error.

I know what I know, mostly form experience, and you don’t have the credentials to convince me otherwise.

Maybe I should strive to possess your superior wisdom and knowledge, but for now my time is better spent marketing and performing actual inspections, instead of engaging someone who is for some reason trying to make it to 50K posts. about 17 of them helpful to someone.

Sorry T-Berry isn’t here for you any more, so you’ve switched to picking on K. Wood and some others.

Don’t start in on me. I’m not interested, and I don’t play fair.

[mlarson (Michael Larson, WI Lic. # 1672-106)]

@mclark2

Keep digging at everyone and eventually you may come up with an error.

I know what I know, mostly form experience, and you don’t have the credentials to convince me otherwise.

Maybe I should strive to possess your superior wisdom and knowledge, but for now my time is better spent marketing and performing actual inspections, instead of engaging someone who is for some reason trying to make it to 50K posts. about 17 of them helpful to someone.

Sorry T-Berry isn’t here for you any more, so you’ve switched to picking on K. Wood and some others.

Don’t start in on me. I’m not interested, and I don’t play fair.

And yet you can’t explain it.

Claiming to know something and being unable to support it is what?

You do not know who you are dealing with.

Go ahead try again or you can continue to attack me.

[mboyett (Michael Boyett, TREC #7290 (Ret) Boerne, TX)]

@Jim_Port

Someone would have to be in contact with a metallic surface like a junction box with an open ground upstream at the same time someone tested the gfi.

Yes, and I have had that very situation occur. A homeowner had installed a GFCI protected outlet using metal conduit and a metal surface mounted j-box. The GFCI ground was connected to the metallic box and the other end of the conduit was not connected to anything, just stubbed out in the attic above. When I tested the GFCI function using my 3-light tester it shunted the 6.7 ma to ground but since there was no real ground connected to the box or conduit other than my other hand then the 6.7 ma went thru me…it got my attention for sure. Actually, it set me on my butt. Had I been on a metallic ladder instead of kneeling down it would certainly have been hazardous. It only takes about 10 ma @ 120 vac to incur involuntary muscle contractions and only about 30 ma to risk heart fibrillation.

[kwood (KEVIN WOOD, CMI)]

A direct attack on me Michael will not serve you well. I will ask you to remove your comment Asap.

[Jim_Port]

@mlarson

I understand that and none said you should not.

But practically speaking do you find all GFCI test buttons.
Trip them and then go around checking for dead outlets at all normally protected locations?

If so how long does that take?

I would think that you would need to find all the test buttons after tripping the remote device anyway. Suppose you have 3 or 4 devices downstream of a gfi. You simply can’t test one and leave it dead and leave the others untested. I would think the HI would want to do a thorough inspection and would be in compliance with the SOP that all the devices be protected. You seem more concerned with how fast you can get off the property. I might be mis-reading your post.

ML, Michael Clark is correct. I described the possibility and Mr. Boyett has experienced it…

@Jim_Port

I saw the note about the fault on the egc in that report but don’t know why, especially given the short duration of the fault. Someone would have to be in contact with a metallic surface like a junction box with an open ground upstream at the same time someone tested the gfi. This would be different than testinga gfi on a 2 wire system since the connection to the egc would be made, but the path is incomplete.

@mboyett

Yes, and I have had that very situation occur. A homeowner had installed a GFCI protected outlet using metal conduit and a metal surface mounted j-box. The GFCI ground was connected to the metallic box and the other end of the conduit was not connected to anything, just stubbed out in the attic above. When I tested the GFCI function using my 3-light tester it shunted the 6.7 ma to ground but since there was no real ground connected to the box or conduit other than my other hand then the 6.7 ma went thru me…it got my attention for sure. Actually, it set me on my butt. Had I been on a metallic ladder instead of kneeling down it would certainly have been hazardous. It only takes about 10 ma @ 120 vac to incur involuntary muscle contractions and only about 30 ma to risk heart fibrillation.

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[mlarson (Michael Larson, WI Lic. # 1672-106)]

@kwood

A direct attack on me Michael will not serve you well. I will ask you to remove your comment Asap.

Do what you must KEVIN.

I only asked a question.