Minnesota Department of Health, Environmental Health Division, Indoor air Unit, PO Box 64975, St. Paul, MN 55164-0975, Nov 2001.
And here it is…http://www.nachi.org/moldcourse.htm
:mrgreen:
Ask and you shall receive. I think one million dollars is in order too.
it is a good course
Thanks!
And the best is yet to come…Hee Hee;-)
Does not matter what kind of mold it is, it needs to be removed and the moisture problem fixed. A swab or simple tape test is enough to identify the spot as mold. The added air samples are just that add ons to make the inspector money. An air sample does not tell you where the mold is, only a thourough inspection and some exploration may do that. A thermal cam wouldn’t hurt to help disclose some areas of moisture that you can back up with a moisture meter.
Air samples are required by IAC2 and recommended by most if not all the standards in the industry.
There are many reasons to air sample for mold. One is to compare outdoor with indoor. Another is to detect for hidden mold that is producing mold spores floating in the air. Another is to confirm that apparent mold growth is producing mold spores which means that the apparent mold is spreading through the building. Another is to confirm the pathway where a person can be exposed (via the air). Another reason to air sample is to test the HVAC system (if one is installed) for mold contamination.
There are many reasons to air sample. Not just because an inspector can charge more for the service.
I encourage you to reconsider the value of air sampling.
Also testing will help determine how to handle the mold during remediation. Considered toxic molds, in most cases, requires a protocol to be written that a remediator follows. Testing helps eliminate unneeded cleanup because you have confirmed how big a certain area needs to be cleaned up. If you do not have this information the remediator will clean too small or too big of an area. Costing the remediator or the consumer more time or money either way.
A swab test will not always confirm if the mold is considered toxic or not. Asperigullis/Penicillium is a common mold but is only considered toxic when it is in high concentrations. Air tests will confirm if the level of Asperigullis/Penicillium is considered toxic. If Asperigullis/Penicillium inside spore count is 9-10 times the outside count, it is considered toxic. I have found you will get more information of what is going on in the house with air samples than any swabs, if you learn how to read a lab report (some friendly molds hang around bad molds etc.). A swab confirms only what type of mold is growing on that surface only. The correct way to use swab samples is to confirm that the considered toxic mold in the air sample is the visible mold growth you are going to remove. If your swab does not match a considered toxic mold in the air sample then you need to start looking for another mold growth somewhere.
Also tape samples are easier read because you are not smashing the mold when you are taking the sample. Less chance your lab will make a mistake. The more things you do to make sure your lab does not make a mistake the better.
Be very careful with how you state the word TOXIC and that low levels of certain molds are not TOXIC such as Pen/Asp. I know some pretty darn good Industrial Hygienists that would have your *** in court with those words.
You do know that most molds that produce mycotoxins aren’t easily dispersed throughout the air, right.
When I do mold sampling I include both viable and non-viable testing.
Here is a picture of some nasty Stachybotrys chartarum. Which in this case was causing sever nose bleeds and prolonged sinus infections to some of the occupants of the home.
Would not the words “considered toxic” and “toxic” have two different meanings?
What is your definition of a low level of Asp/Pen? Are you referring to a level that makes a hypersensitive person sick?
Yes, Stachy and Chaetomium are very heavy molds so they are harder to caught in an air sample. Also mold in walls will not be detected by an air sample, in most cases, because the spores cannot move through walls, but the mycrotoxicins the spores produce can.
I do not preform viable testing yet. Viable is a better form of testing indeed but why do you use it each time? Are you doing a lot of work where a doctor wants to the know the exact species of Stachy, Chaetomium etc that is affecting his patient?
Also those symptoms you describe sounds more like Chaetomium to me. They can be hard to pick up some times. Either way it has to be remediated.
Mark your losing me here, are you saying that asp/peni are not classified in the May contain toxic category ? sorry if Im missing something
Just a question, a swab test will not confirm if the mold is “toxic” or not. If the mold is not of a strain that produces mycotoxin would you advize the client that it is not toxic and it could stay? Of course not you remediate all mold infestations and repair the moisture problem no matter what type of mold it is and I am yet to see a remediation contractor take any different steps in cleaning up mold based on the species. The ones I have seen always follow their strict protocols no matter the species. I don’t wish to slam anybody providing air samples, all the power to you, I was just stating my personal opinion.
Jerry, I think everyone agrees that of mold is present whether toxic or not it has to go, as for me air sampling comes in play as remediation goes on, the question of toxicity has to do with symptoms I believe
My recollection of air sampling is that ESA recommend one outdoor air sample to be used as the control sample for comparison. IAC2 chart states that TWO outdoors samples are required (period) as control sample. Why two outdoor samples?:roll:
Any thoughts??
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I do both viable and non-viable testing so that we can give our clients the answers they are looking for, and yes it is for the doctor. Why, because they are the only ones that can determine weather people have sensitivites to the molds or not.
The only molds detected in that area of the attached picture from my previous post was Stachy chartarum. The numbers were Outside
< 33 spores/m3 and in this room 167 spores/m3
Chaetomium gives me neck and body aches.
I got into mold testing and investigating due to a sever mold allergy that I have.[FONT=Times New Roman][size=3]
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My suggestion for all using the term “toxic” mold is to look up what the word “toxic” means. In fact, all molds may be considered toxic.
The other suggestion is to take the time to discuss the ACTUAL, DOCUMENTED, KNOWN effects of mold on patients. My suggestions are to speak with board certified pulmonologists and allergists/immunologists. You may be surprised to discover that mold generally causes allergic reactions, and not severe illness or death, except in relatively rare conditions where the affected person is severely immunocomprimised and extremely high levels of mold are present.
If conditions conducive to mold growth are present, I state it in the report and suggest that follow-up investigation and possible testing be performed by truly qualified individuals. Oh, for anyone who may not be aware, sick building syndrome can only be considered when more than a single individual is sick.
When what may be mold is present, the suggestion is for further evaluation to be performed, again, by qualified individuals. I do not state that I see mold, as I cannot be sure without testing. A tape or swab sample can be performed, as the client’s direction or by the client themselves. Cornell University’s Co-operative Extension accepts tape samples for evaluation for $25. They indicate the species and whether live or dead. Then they recommend following EPA protocol for cleaning and remediation.
But, will someone please explain to me the validity of recommending indoor air samples for mold be taken, when nothing suspected of being mold, nor conditions conducive to mold growth, are present in the dwelling? This is on the new chart.
As to dissing the EPA, I may remind everyone to take “trade publications” with a grain of salt, as they are written for the TRADE; meaning individuals in the mold business. Yes, business.
Bottom line is that the EPA and CDC are the governmental orgs at the top of the food chain. Most states take the lead from either of these orgs.
Nothing wrong with those who test for mold. But, I have seen no fewer than four (4) local “mold” companies in my area either cause problems, contaminate areas, scare the crap out of occupants, or simply fabricate problems that did not exist.
In one instance, one of the supposed mold experts suddenly felt “faint” in a basement and need to be helped out by his co-worker. This was the same outfit that stated that the crawlspace needed to have the vapor barrier over the dirt removed (“a definite problem and clearly the wrong thing to do in any home”, they said), and the crawlspace vents completely sealed, along with sealing off the crawlspace entryway from the basement (havent they heard of a need for proper ventilation?). They failed to note that the insulation in the crawlspace was upside down, and completely missed the fact that the smell in the kitchen (above the crawlspace) and under the sink was caused from rotting food and sewer gas, and not mold.
The T-Wye fitting at the wall was not connected to the vent (above), and food from the disposal was flying out of this fitting and all over the back wall. Sure, it was a bit wet, but a handyman removed the cabinet, and a 3’x3’ section of sub-floor which was wet and where mold was suspected. After cleaning the area, fixing the fitting, allowing things to dry out, and cleaning it again, the subfloor was replaced and the cabinet re-installed.
Areas needing attention in the basement and crawlspace were rectified, and all was well in the client’s home.
The comment from the mold testing and remediation company was “We dont know where to start”.
I did. It began with an understanding of building science, a good nose, strong flashlight, and unbiased search for a source of smell and source of moisture.
The mold company’s recommendations? Testing was estimated at $3,000, with remediation estimated at around $25k.
In another case, the tester claimed that 4,000 CFU of aspergillius in a 4"x4" swabbed area, found on the back of installed paneling, was a huge problem. Another person, emanently qualified and at the top of the industry, commented to me that he would have been concerned if 4 ***MILLION ***CFUs had been measured in the same area, and that the tester likely caused more of a problem during the testing than anything else. His comment was that the mold should have probebly been left alone, and that under the conditions noted, air samples should have accompanied the single swab sample taken by this guy. Estimates from this guy and from another HUGE company for remediation hovered at around $9k, which was for demolition and cleaning only. Neither addressed the source of any moisture intrusion.
Last week I was called by a client with wet carpet and suspected mold in an exterior wall. Mold experts came by and recommended opening the sheetwodk walls and looking for mold, along with sanding the studs, cleaning any mold, and encapsulating what was left. They also recommended a $4k dehumifification system for the lower level of this RAISED RANCH. BTW… they took no swab or air samples to come to this conclusion and recommendation.
The actual problem was a lack of flashing at the attachment point of an elevated deck, and improperly installed siding, raincap, and trim for a patio door in this room. Around 1 foot of carpet was wet, and had mold growing underneath. Water was entering siding gaps above the exterior door and running nto the dwelling. How dd we figure this out? We observed intrusion during a driving rain, and then covered the area around and above the door with plastic and duct tape and the water intrusion imediately stopped. Of course, further investigation was needed, but this was a pretty good start.
Remedy suggested? Removing exterior siding and some sheathing to examine condition of insulation, sheathing, and back-side of installed sheetrock and studs. Replace affected items, eliminate the source of the water intrusion, relace the carpet after scrubbbing the slabfloor, and if they wanted to… purchase a dehumidifier. Mold company was disappointed that their cleaning efforts netted around $300. Cost of repairs (total) was around $900, less the cost of the cleaning and dehumidifier. Total was just under $1400; all performed by a licensed contractor.
Now you know why mold is so very controversial.
Lots of information. Unfortunately, sources can not always be reliable.
With litigation looming, we (the Inspector), are sometimes put between a rock and a hard place.
Process and consistency is key.
Remember that. Always
There are several reasons.
One is to address an adverse health hypothesis of my client. However, concerns about health effects related to mold exposure are very complicated because they involve a chain of hypotheses: mold has to be present, the affected person must be exposed to mold (via airborne spores), the affected person must be sensitive to the exposure, and the exposure must cause the symptoms. If hidden mold exists (say within the HVAC system), then an air sample can confirm the path for exposure.
Another is the HVAC system. Mold inside an HVAC system ductwork is hidden, and therefore beyond the scope of the visual examination of the building. However, air sampling can confirm the presence of contamination of the HVAC system. There’s no other way.
There are other reasons. They will be taught in the near-future Mold Inspection Training Online Video (which I’m editing right now). Stay tuned.
and this for me is a reason that i hesitate on bank owned properties that have been sitting for a year or more on running the system through a cycle because i don’t know what is in the ductwork besides dust, snd I always let the client know
An HVAC system that has delayed maintenance is an area of concern for a mold inspector. Delayed maintenance is simply a condition conducive to mold growth.