That's one way to do it . . . is it still a double tap

Originally Posted By: senomoto
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http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/P/P72603791.JPG ]


[ Image: http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/P/P72603771.JPG ]



Stephen Enomoto


Horizon Home Inspection LLC


“You expect the Best . . . We’ll provide no Less”

Originally Posted By: lkage
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senomoto wrote:
Two wires being pigtailed and then tapped into one circuit breaker. This is not standard installation and the question is "is this still considered a double tap?


No, I don't believe it would be considered a double tap. The wires look the same size (#12 for the 20 amp breaker).

Are the yellow breakers AFCI's?


--
"I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him."
Galileo Galilei

Originally Posted By: senomoto
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yes to AFCI.


I was always told that wires should never be have wire nuts in a panel box. Am I wrong on this?


--
Stephen Enomoto
Horizon Home Inspection LLC
"You expect the Best . . . We'll provide no Less"

Originally Posted By: James D Mosier
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I don’t consider the two wire-nutted wires a double tap, there’s only one wire at the breaker, it’s really no different than if they were wire-nutted in the first junction box and then went their separate ways. Wire nuts are definately allowed in old work.


I don't think the ground crossing the main lugs is "wrong" but it could have been done better.

Let's see what the pros have to say.

Not impying that Larry isn't a pro, I started my post before he posted.


--
Jim Mosier

Originally Posted By: lkage
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I don’t believe “pigtailing” reasonably is a problem.



“I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn’t learn something from him.”


Galileo Galilei

Originally Posted By: James D Mosier
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I have not yet been up close and personal with an AFCI breaker. Are those by chance double tapped?



Jim Mosier

Originally Posted By: senomoto
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no the installation is correct



Stephen Enomoto


Horizon Home Inspection LLC


“You expect the Best . . . We’ll provide no Less”

Originally Posted By: lgoodman
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Stephen,


a splice with wire nut in junction box is o.k. and that is what you have.


this splice will cause no more problem than if it were in the next covered junction box down stream


Originally Posted By: jmyers
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I have two questions. First would be…did you take that picture sideways?, or is the panel installed sideways?


That would be a code violation for that panel if indeed it is installed sideways.

Second would be....is the splice in the panel? If I am not mistaken, panels are not allowed to be used as a junction box, so that could be considered a code violation.


--
Joe Myers
A & N Inspections, Inc.
http://anii.biz

Originally Posted By: Joey D’Adamo
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jmyers wrote:
Second would be....is the splice in the panel? If I am not mistaken, panels are not allowed to be used as a junction box, so that could be considered a code violation.


By that they generally mean that wires should not enter and then leave only being spliced to each other and not a peice of equipment within the panel. If it is spliced to a peice of equipment within the panel, it is considered acceptable. This was the explanation given here once before but I can't remember who it was from.


Originally Posted By: dbush
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Joe, the code is rather vague. It actually says “it can be used as a junction, provided there is reasonable room to do so” or some ambigious crap like that. icon_smile.gif



Dave Bush


MAB Member


"LIFE'S TOUGH, WEAR A HELMET"

Originally Posted By: Joey D’Adamo
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dbush wrote:
Joe, the code is rather vague. It actually says "it can be used as a junction, provided there is reasonable room to do so" or some ambigious crap like that. ![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif)


Now that you mention it, I seem to remember either Joe T or Greg F talking a lot about box fill when it came to this topic. I suppose one of them will weigh in soon and offer the explanation again. ![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif)


Originally Posted By: roconnor
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Connecting two wires in the panel before running a single wire to to breaker is permitted if there is enough space (appears to be plenty), and if it’s a solidly connected and approved splice device (e.g. special wire nuts for AL-CU connections).


There is the possibility of nuisance trips from two circuits connected to one breaker depending on how heavily the two pigtailed circuit wires are which you should warn your clients about.

JMO and 2-nickels ... ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: dandersen
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Are the added breaker matched to the panel?


They are not the same brand.


Looks like a pool/spa add on.
Is it?


Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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Quote:
312.7 Space in Enclosures.

Cabinets and cutout boxes shall have sufficient space to accommodate all conductors installed in them without crowding.

312.8 Enclosures for Switches or Overcurrent Devices.

Enclosures for switches or overcurrent devices shall not be used as junction boxes, auxiliary gutters, or raceways for conductors feeding through or tapping off to other switches or overcurrent devices, unless adequate space for this purpose is provided.

The conductors shall not fill the wiring space at any cross section to more than 40 percent of the cross-sectional area of the space, and the conductors, splices, and taps shall not fill the wiring space at any cross section to more than 75 percent of the cross-sectional area of that space.



--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: lgoodman
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There exists a possibility of trips on any circuit depending on how heavily it used. I hesitate to call them nuisance trips because they are responding to amperage in excess of the wires ampacity. If you report this one you might as well report the possibility of trips on all the breakers in the panel unless you know that this one presents a special problem.


If I recognized a problem I would report it but it is just as possible that this splice was put here because it was the least utilized circuit in the panel. That is how a thinking electrician would pick the circuit to tap.

I think you will just be filling your report with something that seems negative but actually is of no real import to the buyer's decision.


Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Joe T,


In your opinion, would that pigtail in the panel qualify as using the panel as a junction box?


--
Joe Myers
A & N Inspections, Inc.
http://anii.biz

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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jmyers wrote:
Joe T,

In your opinion, would that pigtail in the panel qualify as using the panel as a junction box?


Joe

Yes, however, that single lonely innocent splice will not create a serious and life threatening problem.

The rule I quoted above allows quite a few more, and if we calculated the number of wires permitted to pass through tha cabinet, using it as a raceway, we would be amazed.

A 40% fill is not to be exceeded.


--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: lkage
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jtedesco wrote:
jmyers wrote:
Joe T,

In your opinion, would that pigtail in the panel qualify as using the panel as a junction box?


Joe

Yes, however, that single lonely innocent splice will not create a serious and life threatening problem.

The rule I quoted above allows quite a few more, and if we calculated the number of wires permitted to pass through tha cabinet, using it as a raceway, we would be amazed.

A 40% fill is not to be exceeded.


Really appreciate your answer Joe T. It helps having your opinion as well as the code quotes.

Thanks.


--
"I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him."
Galileo Galilei

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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lgoodman wrote:
There exists a possibility of trips on any circuit depending on how heavily it used. I hesitate to call them nuisance trips because they are responding to amperage in excess of the wires ampacity. If you report this one you might as well report the possibility of trips on all the breakers in the panel unless you know that this one presents a special problem.

I dont agree.

A single wire correctly sized on a single breaker usually works fine, unless it's not designed correctly. But with two wires to a single breaker (say two #12 on a 20A breaker ... which is up to about 50A using typical 60C NM wire, or 60A using 90C THHN wire) either with a pigtail or a breaker listed for two wires (e.g. SQD QO) the likelihood of nuisance trips increases dramatically. Also, many times this is done with a panel that is undersized to begin with, with a lack of breaker spaces, which just adds salt to the wound.

Not alerting your client to the fact that there could be nuisance trips if the two circuits connected to the single breaker are heavily loaded, or that it might be an indication of an overloaded panel if it was done because there were no more breaker spaces, would be poor practice for an HI in my opinion.

JMO and 2-nickels ... ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong