What's the truth with ThermApp?

Specific Inspection Topics Thermal Imaging, Infrared Cameras & Energy Audits
21

I got some updated info I thought I would pass on to everyone

I contacted FLIR for an analysis of the Therm App by OPGAL. There are flaws in the type of IR sensor used in this device. The Halo “Ghosting” around targets of temperature contrast will cause measurement errors and blind the sensor. There are several different types of IR sensor materials used in thermal imaging tools (PbSe, HgCdTe, InSb, PtSi, Photon Counters, ect.). The FLIR E6 uses a much higher quality sensor. With the FLIR E6, the measurement from one pixel will not cause flux to the neighbor pixels.

The Therm App also uses a less effective “Shutterless” NUC or Non-Uniformity Correction to periodically calibrate the IR sensor. All the higher quality imagers integrate a moving shutter to reset & recalibrate the IR sensor (the moving shutter makes a clicking sound inside the imager).

I would continue to endorse the FLIR, FLUKE and TESTO cameras. Your students can rely on higher quality products and support from the larger infrared companies in the world. The free software from FLIR gives the inspector the ability to completely transform the IR image on their Mac or PC (palette / temperature measurements / temperature scale level and span / PIP / MSX / Visual / Image rotate / Reports). The therm app only takes screen shots. I don’t believe the Therm App comes with a calibration either. (I know each company sometimes has less than perfect warranty support).

******************************* more info below…

As you can see from the literature this device (gadget) is being marketed as a surveillance camera not a temperature measuring camera the E6-8 can do much better. While it does have a nice number of pixels, giving the indication of good imaging there are many drawbacks and much better solutions from FLIR. Plus I noticed a halo around warmer targets.

Some of the drawbacks:
· Android only
· No drop rating. If it drops it breaks and so does your phone
· Small temp range only up to 90 c not even boiling water. Not good enough for pdm applications
· Has only one spot meter and no area max box.
· No software so non radiometric imaging
· No integrated visual camera, so no MSX or Fusion modes
· Runs off the battery of your cell phone, so it will drain it much faster. How long does your cell phone last anyway?
· IP54 rating, but your phone is not so will you take it and use it in a wet environment?

22

More info …

I did more research for an analysis of the Therm App by OPGAL. There are flaws in the type of IR sensor used in this device. The Halo “Ghosting” around targets of temperature contrast will cause measurement errors and blind the sensor. There are several different types of IR sensor materials used in thermal imaging tools (PbSe, HgCdTe, InSb, PtSi, Photon Counters, ect.). The FLIR E6 uses a much higher quality sensor. With the FLIR E6, the measurement from one pixel will not cause flux to the neighbor pixels.

The Therm App also uses a less effective “Shutterless” NUC or Non-Uniformity Correction to periodically calibrate the IR sensor. All the higher quality imagers integrate a moving shutter to reset & recalibrate the IR sensor (the moving shutter makes a clicking sound inside the imager).

I would continue to endorse the FLIR E6. Your students can rely on higher quality products and support from the largest infrared company in the world. The free software from FLIR gives the inspector the ability to completely transform the IR image on their Mac or PC (palette / temperature measurements / temperature scale level and span / PIP / MSX / Visual / Image rotate / Reports). The therm app only takes screen shots. I don’t believe the Therm App comes with a calibration either.

As you can see from the literature this device(gadget) is being marketed as a surveillance camera not a temperature measuring camera the E5-8 can do much better. While it does have a nice number of pixels, giving the indication of good imaging there are many drawbacks and much better solutions from FLIR. Plus I noticed a halo around warmer targets.

Some of the drawbacks:
· Android only
· No drop rating. If it drops it breaks and so does your phone
· Small temp range only up to 90 c not even boiling water. Not good enough for pdm applications
· Has only one spot meter and no area max box.
· No software so non radiometric imaging
· No integrated visual camera, so no MSX or Fusion modes
· Runs off the battery of your cell phone, so it will drain it much faster. How long does your cell phone last anyway?
· IP54 rating, but your phone is not so will you take it and use it in a wet environment?

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23

Perhaps using IR attachment fir smart phones may not give a very professional image to customer. While I found there are some references from pest control profession mentioning that IR attachment could be a new trend. Attached I have extracted two pages from : IPM for the Urban Professional: A study guide for the Associate Certified Entomologist", the author mentioned using IR attachment for inspection could be a new trend in the future.

From my limited experience, I feel using Smartphone IR attachment can be convenient. Although my company will have a Flir E40 available later, I would still keep my Flir One 2Gen for brief inspection.I also have a MR176 as well. It is rather heavy duty matter if you carry the Flir E40 all the day(If not driving). Also, have a E40 lost or broken during inspection can be very costly.

It does not mean that I agree using the IR attachement for smart phones to replace professional IR camera. But I just feel using smartphone for work will be more and more popular. However,not many ppl would realize the difference between these two.

By the way,I have considred to use Flir C2 for pest inspection, but due to its poor resolution, I give up this idea. However, if Flir provides something with better resolution, at least 160X120, I will probably consider again.

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24

FLIR already provides 160x120 in the E6 model.

There is no right way to do something wrong.

Get some training.

25

Thanks for your comment.John:D
Yes, FLIR provides E6 with 160X120, and my company will have E40 later.

But I hope they can provide a pocket size camera like C2 with higher resolution and better NETD <100mk or better.

As PMP, I always need to have a first site visit to quote price and in most cases these are free of charge. Of course, initial inspectoin needs to be professional as well, so I hope to have some handy tools. Until now, I cannot find any IR attachment for smartphone can reach professional level(only Opgal claims Them app can be).

Being handy is the nice feature of C2, but resolution is not sufficient for me.

26

“ALL” your subcompact IR cameras and cell phone add-on’s are using poor quality infrared sensors, processors that compensate for the gaps and actually create blind spots in the image, tiny lenses that have been mingled with synthetic materials that produce poor optics and fuzzy mk ratings. They have reduced the size of the cameras and lowered the price, but produce less than professional images that lack the ability to find hidden defects in a building. The client does not know any of this and the inspector that use these cameras are glad they can operate under the cover of their ignorant clients. This causes me to have grief that so many have no conscience toward their clients.

27

I would be hesitant to even use my T660 to look for termites!
The application uses indirect measurement with a low temperature differential. You would need a 60 gallon tank of liquid nitrogen to track down a bug with a FLIR C2!

You can find bugs with thermal imaging, but to place your reputation on the line to say “no, you do not have any bugs” because you used a thermal camera would be very difficult to say out of my mouth.

28

I think we can only use IR camera to locate some water leakage/moisture problem, these can be conducive environment to termite and other pests. From our internal IR camera user guide, IR camera is used only to locate some door gaps, broken defects at high level etc that could serve as entrance points for pest. It cannot see the pest directly in most cases, but of course, rat big termite nest and hornet nest are exception.

IR technology can only be considered as an assistance for pest control. However, I agree that it still needs to be used in a proper way.

29

Thanks for your comments.

What puzzle me a lot is that FLIR promotes C2 as "Professional Thermal Imaging Right in your pocket".It also states “The FLIR C2 is the world’s first full-featured, pocket-sized thermal camera designed especially for building applications” It may not be professional for home inspector/PMP but it can be professional for others.I am not sure.

In addition, I just find from “http://therm-app.com/product/therm-app-bundle/” that have " 4 germanium thermal lenses". Although $1,999 is not a cheap price, germanium seems to be good material for lens, but I never use this before so I am not commending on Opgal lens.

30

I have called and wrote to several regional sales reps from FLIR who have all told me the same thing about the C2. They have all told me that the C2 is not recommended for a professional home inspector and they recommend nothing less than the e6 for professional building inspectors. FLIR use to list the e6 and above as the PROFESSIONAL LEVEL cameras. Write them yourself and see what they tell you. Remember… the C2 is 400% below the resolution of the RESNET standard.

The “therm-app” price of $1999 is very very close to the price my students pay for the FLIR e6… which has much better features and quality. Not even close.

See these images that show you how an 80x60 resolution camera could not see the moisture issue on the far right side of the photo… compared to a better IR camera that could see the issue.

Germanium lenses can be poorly made and very tiny, while being mingles with other man made materials to lower cost… while at the same time they are still called a Germanium lens.

The number of detectors listed does not mean they are all the same kind of detectors as they use to be. Some are very low quality now. The same is true in how the processing of the images are now done to compensate for the poor quality of the detectors (or lack of them).

It is legal for IR companies to use quality images in their ads, while trying to sell a poor quality camera. The industry is filled with information intended to mislead. Many inspector even know the difference but still buy the junk cameras in order to start their IR business and sell their inferior service to the poor unsuspecting consumers.

I do not sell cameras and I make the camera companies and inspectors very mad at me by saying these things.

31

Hi John,
Yes, that is why I love to read this forum when I have time since many people have spoken truth! In some cases, pesticide suppliers (and my boss) get mad at me when I speak the truth. It is a miracle that I can survive in my Chinese culture pest Control Company for more than 7 years! (And this company will be taken over in a month by other multinational corporation……)
What makes a problem for me is that since I have used FlIR One 2GEN as assistant gadget for inspections. Technicians and some of my colleagues are very impressed by the colorful image. And it did reveal some moisture problems that our naked eye cannot find before. I also have informed them that the findings from IR images needs to be verified by other tools (moisture meter), but no one listen to me. They all have filters on their ears and only listen to the good news for them while ignore other remarks. After that, some of them browse FLIR web site directly and they find many things interesting……Sooner or later, they bear the consequences.
But, if the study guide of ACE program also mentions using IR attachment on smartphone, I had better informed the author to be alerted that more training and advanced tools are needed when PMP comes to IR technology. Or at least, if PMP use FLIR C2, Flir One etc, they should notice the limitation and avoid “Talk too much” to the customers.
As for the 80X60 resolution image, actually, I remember you did mention in other posts. But some others find there is a lamp at the photo of “Cheaper IR camera” so that these two images may not be ideal for comparing. But of course, better resolution does reveal more defects, that is what FLIR mention by comparing E4 – E8 models.
In this case, it may be better to compare E6 / E40bx with Flir One 2 GEN/C2, both have 160X120 IR Resolution, while the lens are different in size and the thermal sensitivity are different. So that People can see the difference between tool and gadget. I hope I may get these tools later and try to see if I can take some good photos for comparison.

32

Hi,

I can’t comment on the usability of the Therm-App as a camera for home inspections, however I own a Therm-App and I can clear up a few misconceptions in the thread.

  1. The halo effect around warm objects is only visible when the camera is set in “Night Vision” mode - not when it’s set to “Thermography” mode. It’s a artificial effect added by software to make it easier to detect warm objects when used for night vision (as it highlights warm objects). There is no halo when used in thermography mode.

  2. The sensor used is actually a ULIS Pico384p (http://www.ulis-ir.com/index.php?infrared-detector=pico384p-037). This is a true 17um 384x288 sensor with a 55mK NETD. ULIS is a french thermal imaging sensor manufacturer that is the biggest outside of the US IIRC. Both Fluke and Testo use their sensors.

  3. The lenses are not made by Opgal, they’re from Umicore (http://eom.umicore.com/en/infrared-optics/product-range/) and Ophir (http://www.ophiropt.com/optics/lens_sub_assembly/catalog/ophir_supir_lens_catalog.pdf)

  4. The standard Therm-App is ~1000 USD and there is a Therm-App TH avaliable for ~1900 USD. The standard Therm-App TH is calibrated more tightly than the standard Therm-App and is cal’d up to 200C as opposed to 90C. It also comes with reporting software (IRT Cronista), which does approximately the same thing as FLIR Tools.

  5. After a quick comparison with other users on the EEVBlog forum, the Therm-App generally delivers better images than the FLIR E4(8) (because the Ex series lens is absolutely crap) and is near the level of the E60.

If you need me to send sample images let me know.

33

Thanks for the detailed info. Cronista has been around for quite awhile as a non-brand specific reporting tool. I’m looking forward to seeing the next couple generations of these smart coupled devices.

34

Since you do not feel confident to recommend this camera for home inspections, it must be safer for you to avoid speaking such a public opinion.

If the camera can produce images no better than an FLIR e4, then that pretty well lets us know it cannot be used for professional building inspections. It seems odd that you say this camera is a “true 17um 384x288” but only produces images no better than the FLIR e4, which has only 60x80 resolution. It makes no sense, and if it is true, it does not speak well of this camera at all.

What is your relationship to the company that produces these cameras?

35

Hi John,

The reason I’m not recommending this camera for home inspections is because I’m not a home inspector and thus I don’t feel confident making a recommendation. This has nothing to do with the Therm-App itself. I am only commenting here because I came across this forum linked from another forum I frequent and came across this thread.

I’m a customer, although I have spent a lot of time messing with the Therm-App software, their SDK and various bits of desktop software to add new features for my own use, ie. Radiometric Video Recording into both raw 14bit and flir seq formats (You would normally need a FLIR Txxx series camera to do this).

I said the Therm-App generally delivers better images than the FLIR E4 :wink: (the forum seems to have turned that into a smiley face). By FLIR E4 :wink: I meant a FLIR E4 hacked to E8 320x240 spec. My apologies for being very vague with that. My original attention was for the winky face to be like a “wink, wink, nudge nude”.

I should probably clarify my claims about the Ex having a garbage lens and the Therm-App being on par with the Exx series.

Obviously one of the most important performance aspects of a thermal camera is obviously it’s sensitivity to small temperature differentials.

Here is a low delta T scene (1.2 degrees C) captured from a FLIR E4 and E40 (both hacked to 320x240). This image was not taken by me, but by another user on the eevblog forum.

http://puu.sh/mKX6p/04e0266ac8.jpg

While both the E4/8 and E40/60 share the same sensor, the Ex delivers a noticeably worse image due to it having a bad (f/1.5 I believe) lens compared to the Exx’s f/1.2 lens which lets in significantly more light. You can kinda tell this just by looking at the size of the lens on both models. The lens on the Ex is practically cellphone camera sized.

http://puu.sh/knAcN/566f2341c8.jpg

Here is a Therm-App image I took with a 1.2C temperature range for comparison. Since the subject and ambient temperature are different, this is far from a scientific comparison. However, I think you can agree that when it comes to low delta-T scenes, the Therm-App delivers a image far closer to the quality of the E60 than the E8.

36

HI Edward, do you have some sample images that can be posted for reference? It is better for home inspection and building related image.

37

Yes… and please submit images in the same environment as this can change the quality of what the final image looks like. Just saying.

38

Yes, I’m aware of that - unfortunately I currently don’t have access to a FLIR Ex to do a proper side by side comparison, but my point was more to point out that the Therm-App in low delta-T instances delivers better images than a E8. While the E8 could deliver a better image given a different environment, I think it’s safe to say that the difference (in the sample images) is large enough that a different environment is unlikely to make a significant difference in the grand scheme of things.

Here are some images I took. You can let me know whether they’re good or bad in the context of home inspection because, quite frankly, I have no idea.

I have included temperature scales so you know the delta T in the images.

http://puu.sh/mMisN/b89416c0e6.jpg

http://puu.sh/mMjZ6/2770003cf2.jpg

http://puu.sh/mMjWm/d38a83602b.jpg

http://puu.sh/mMjU3/e5316a7f42.jpg

http://puu.sh/mMjRj/4527abc91e.jpg

39

Keep posting Edward. It’s good info and I’d like to hear more.

Understand that John is a bit argumentative because he’s trying to guard his turf and feels threatened.

40

Which is not a bad thing. :wink:

I agree this is good info and one should know what is going on around us.