240 Volts or Not?

Originally Posted By: jpope
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



I’ve already made my recommendation, but would like some opinions.


These breakers were marked as kitchen circuits (two @ 20A ea.). There are no 240V appliances in the kitchen and no 240V outlets in the kitchen.

The breakers were fed by one - four wire - NM with the white conductor to the neutral bus and the bare to the grounding bus (all in an equipment panel) with no handle tie.

The handle tie in the picture is attached to the breakers outside of the ones indicated by the arrows.

![](upload://h8DgeSd8QVjBWOVkIQYSNSGjl02.jpeg)

All of the receptacles in this condo checked out to be wired properly according to my SureTest.

How would you call this?


--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738

Originally Posted By: jwortham
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Jeff,


Has this kitchen been remodeled?

Had this in my own house. 240 volt appliance had been replaced and the plug changed out.

Second hot leg had been capped and taped.


Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



I’m guessing a multi-wire circuit for the dishwasher and disposal. Very common.



Jerry Peck


South Florida

Originally Posted By: jpope
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



jpeck wrote:
I'm guessing a multi-wire circuit for the dishwasher and disposal. Very common.


Common? Maybe. But wouldn't that be wired improperly? Or would they split the neutral and ground at the appliances?


--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738

Originally Posted By: Joey D’Adamo
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Wouldn’t that be the counter circuit? I thought it was perfectly acceptable in the US to run a multiwire 20A circuit on the counters, alternating each hot on adjacent outlets with a common neutral.


Although I think the handle tie would be required. Although I recall reading somewhere that it's only required for mulltiwire circuits with split recepticles.


Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



jpope wrote:
No remodel Jeff.

jpeck wrote:
I'm guessing a multi-wire circuit for the dishwasher and disposal. Very common.


Common? Maybe. But wouldn't that be wired improperly? Or would they split the neutral and ground at the appliances?


Multi-wire branch circuit uses two phase conductors with 240 volts between then and the neutral is shared. That way, when one is on, the neutral carries full current, however, when both are on, the neutral only carries the unbalanced current.

You cannot have (are not allowed to have) a 240 volt load on a multi-wire circuit.


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Joey D'Adamo wrote:
Wouldn't that be the counter circuit? I thought it was perfectly acceptable in the US to run a multiwire 20A circuit on the counters, alternating each hot on adjacent outlets with a common neutral.


Could be that too, except ...

Quote:
Although I think the handle tie would be required. Although I recall reading somewhere that it's only required for mulltiwire circuits with split recepticles.


If both circuits supply receptacles on the same yoke, then they would need a handle tie.

So I passed on to the other common use of a multi-wire circuit - dishwashers and disposals.


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: Joey D’Adamo
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



jpeck wrote:

If both circuits supply receptacles on the same yoke, then they would need a handle tie.

So I passed on to the other common use of a multi-wire circuit - dishwashers and disposals.


Well the only thing is, "same yoke" to me means like the Canadian way where you break the hot connecting tab on the duplex recepticle and wire one phase to the top and one phase to the bottom. Now, my understanding is that in the US the approach is to wire an entire duplex receptical to one phase, and the next duplex recepticle to the other phase, and so on. Having said that, wouldn't it be okay to have the handle tie removed so long as the duplex recepticles are only attached to one phase at a time?

Edit: Looks like i've stumbled upon something that is something of a debate: http://www.inspect-ny.com/electric/multiwir.htm (section 3a). Interesting stuff.


Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Joey D'Adamo wrote:
Well the only thing is, "same yoke" to me means like the Canadian way where you break the hot connecting tab on the duplex recepticle and wire one phase to the top and one phase to the bottom.


Correct. The two receptacles are still on the same yoke.

Quote:
Now, my understanding is that in the US the approach is to wire an entire duplex receptical to one phase, and the next duplex recepticle to the other phase, and so on.


Depends on where you are at I guess. I think splitting them on the same yoke is more common.

Quote:
Having said that, wouldn't it be okay to have the handle tie removed so long as the duplex recepticles are only attached to one phase at a time?


Not if on the same yoke. If on different yokes like you described, yes.


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: jpope
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



icon_confused.gif


If I weren't confused b4. . .

I is now


--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738

Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Jeff,


Confused about what part? Or too confused to know what part and I should start over?


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: jpope
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Is this circuit okay as I described it in the original post? Or does it need a handle tie? Or am I way off?



Jeff Pope


JPI Home Inspection Service


“At JPI, we’ll help you look better”


(661) 212-0738

Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



jpope wrote:
Is this circuit okay as I described it in the original post? Or does it need a handle tie? Or am I way off?


IF (the big IF) it is for the dishwasher and the disposal (the typical things it would be for) or some other things on a multi-wire circuit, NO it does NOT need a handle tie.

You are asking a definitive question without stating definitively what this is for, hence my "IF".


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



[quote=“jpeck”]
jpope wrote:

You cannot have (are not allowed to have) a 240 volt load on a multi-wire circuit.


... unless there is a handle tie or 2 pole breaker

210.4(C) Line-to-Neutral Loads. Multiwire branch circuits shall supply only line-to-neutral loads.
Exception No. 2: Where all ungrounded conductors of the multiwire branch circuit are opened simultaneously by the branch-circuit overcurrent device.


Originally Posted By: jpope
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



jpeck wrote:
You are asking a definitive question without stating definitively what this is for, hence my "IF".


Because I don't know ![icon_sad.gif](upload://nMBtKsE7kuDHGvTX96IWpBt1rTb.gif)

My recommendation was that a handle tie be installed


--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738

Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



jpope wrote:
jpeck wrote:
You are asking a definitive question without stating definitively what this is for, hence my "IF".


Because I don't know ![icon_sad.gif](upload://nMBtKsE7kuDHGvTX96IWpBt1rTb.gif)

My recommendation was that a handle tie be installed


That's safe, but be prepared for a negative response from the electrician.


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida