4 Point Electrical Question

Well can we push towards only doing the work that is needed?

Taking 4 points to another level does NOTHING for us or our clients.

For “MOST” of us the homeowner is the client.

I run my business the way I see fit and have for almost 18 years.
It is my opinion that all of the insurance inspections are horses**t anyway. I answer the questions on the form. It isn’t my fault that the questions leave a tremendous amount of room for interpretation.

I have tried sending the form like Mr. Meeker has in and it got rejected. They wanted to know if I had the NACHI form so I sent in that one. That is why I instruct my Clients to find out what their insurance companies want, and then I give it to them. If they want a one page letter, I have several of those. If they want the NACHI form, I have that as well.

Personally, I believe that the 4-points and wind mits should be declared invalid as they are clearly out of the scope of what home inspectors do. We do not enforce the code and if an insurance company is going to refuse coverage for someone because they have aluminum wiring in their home, which met code when it was installed and there is no code stating it must be removed, then I believe they are now enforcing the code which doesn’t exist.

With regards to wind mits, I have seen numerous reports with pictures of nails that missed the trusses. Granted the nails are six inches apart, but, since they are nailed into thin air, they are also a blatant code violation as well as a violation of the APAs roof decking nailing guidelines, yet, this is considered acceptable.

Furthermore, as it is a requirement for most mortgages to acquire and maintain homeowners insurance, it is a form of extortion.

I will “bend” the words as far as I legally can to help my Clients.

Well said Eric.

Insurance companies have never been bound by building codes which is a minumun standard. If an insureance company is being asked to shell out thousands of dollars in claims, they have a right to know what they are getting into. If the homes with aluminum wiring were maintained properly by the homowner this wouldn’t be an issue but few if any are, and many 4-point inspectors may not be able to determine that difference anyway. Unfortunately, not all of the problems associated a product or construction method are common knowledge at the time it was allowed by code. Perhaps if the homeowner had a home inspection at the time of purchase, they would have been aware of the possible issues. Remember these home are 35-30 years old and may or may not have been properly maintained.

As far as the morgage company requiring you to carry insurance goes, are you serious. Extortion??? Again, these things happen because of experience. This was not always a universial requirement. I bet it didn’t take too many homeowners defaulting on a morgage because their house burned down and they had no insurance to rebuild, before the morgage company started requiring morgagees to maintain insurence during the life of the morgage. Can you imagine foeclosing on the home because of non-payment only to find that the 300k home you loaned 200k on was no longer there all you have is a 40k empty lot. They are already taking a chance that the home will be woth what they loaned on it.

The same is true for cars that are financed they are required to carry collision coverage for the same reeasons.

Using that logic, every home that is over 30 years old should be re-roofed, re-wired, re-plumbed, etc? It appears that is exactly the stance insurance companies are taking.

The insurance companies are writing their own set of codes and telling you, bring your house up to this code or either it will cost you a lot more money or we won’t insure you at all. Meanwhile, how many millions of homes have aluminum wiring and haven’t had any incidents, much less burnt to the ground? That goes for Polybutylene piping, FPE panels and anything else that the insurance companies care to dream up in order to increase profits.

The mortgage companies, and we will pretend that is as simple as borrowing 5 bucks from a friend, do not care if you pay your mortgage or not. They get money up front, during the course of the loan and on the back end as well. If you can’t qualify for a “conforming” loan and have to have another option, you will most likely be required to have mortgage insurance. It doesn’t matter what the value of the home is when you default or the circumstances, as the MI covers the difference, not to mention the down payment that the mortgage company has already pocketed.

It has always irked me why I have to pay for homeowners insurance. I, according to the bank, don’t own this home until it is paid off. Since it technically is your home Mr. Banker, you pay the insurance. If that happened, wonder what their rates would be?:mrgreen:

Here, financed or not, you are required to carry minimum insurance. Insurance requirements

First of all, I have found that most mortgage and insurance companies are typically reactive and not proactive in the majority of instances. In other words they have learned from being burned by borrower. That is why the requirements have gotten to the place thy are. Because a certain percentage of us could not or did not do the right thing when things were done on a handshake is why it has come to a multiple page contract to purchase a home, Buy a car or inspect a home. The lender does not see the interest earned by the loan the same way as you. They consider that it is the their operating capital and profit not as their insurance policy to cover some problem associated with the borrower or caused by the borrower. Secondly, in most cases it likely takes close to 10 or more years of P&I mortgage payments equal the cost of rebuilding a home and by that time most have refinanced or moved on and remember the down payment doesn’t go to the lender it goes to the seller. No one is forcing any of us to sign a loan document we are free to shop for the best deal. Until we has amassed a big enough nest egg its in out best intrest to carry insurance on our home.

I am not trying to be a defender of Insurance companies but I do feel they do have a right to analyze their exposure and establish requirements for coverage. Their failure to do so would not cause them to lose profits but rather moe likely all our rates would rise because they will not lose profits if they can help it. I am a firm believer that rates should be based on risk and not all houses are created equal. In other words, a block home built last year should not pay the premium as a frame home built yester-year that has a FPE panel, aluminum witing, Polybutylene piping, non-fencedpool with diving board, trampoline, pit bull and a 30 year old shingle roof subject to leaking if it could even qualify for coverage.

I am sure that the charter they sign with the state requires them to accept pooled risks, if all of the insurance companies want to cherry-pick their clients then they should be shown the friggin door post haste.

I missed the part about auto insurance. To the best of my knowledge, by state law you are only required to carry PIP and maybe a minimun level liability. I don’t think you are required to carry collision, may also be called comprehensive, unless the car is financed and the lender requires it. Pip fixes you and liability fixes the other person’s car if it’s your fault.

Auto insurance is broken into different parts, some are state mandated others such as collision or comprehensive and possibly uninsured motorist which have more to do with fixing your own car or you if the at fault has no insurance or their limits are exceeded. I think, at least standard PIP is only 10K after that either your health insurance kicks in or that at fault driver’s liability or your own uninsured motorist coverage. In cases where a car is financed the lender will require that you carry collisin or comprehensvie so thaat they are assured the car will be fixed or hopefully paid off even if the at fulat driver has no coverage.

I posted the requirements in a previous post. That is all you are required by law to have. You can get as much insurance as you are willing to pay for.

The difference between the home insurance and the auto insurance is that the insurer is punishing you for things that haven’t happened (homeowners, aluminum wiring, fpe panel, poly, etc.) and the auto insurer is punishing you for things that have happened (suspended license, dui, traffic violations, accidents, etc.).

You are not required to have any insurance except the minimums regardless of if you own or finance your car. The amounts of coverage are different for leased vehicles, but, the minimums are still applied. You are also not required to have “gap” insurance either.

What you posted was the requirements by the state they have NOTHING to do with what is required by a lender which is what I was reffering to.
The lender will require that you carry collision (may also be known as comprehensive) This will help protect them if the car is damaged or totaled in a collision.

All the systems in a home have an expected life and unfortunately a large percentage of home owners fail to keep up with this. Insurance companies have learned followed this over many years and have decided to react to react to it with their own requirements. My freiend, you are confusing code with condition and life expectancy. This the prime reason the code inspectors and contractors should not do home inspections without further training. Just because something was installed per code and met code 30 years ago does not mean that it is performing as intended today. A 4-point is about condition not code.

I have never, let me repeat that, never, had to get any other insurance on any vehicle I have ever owned for the last 32 years, besides the requirement by law. That includes purchased, financed as well as leased vehicles.

If you or anyone else had to get extra coverage to qualify for a car loan, I suspect there are problems with your credit history or driving record, or both.

I am not confusing anything with anything. The four point inspection is just another tool of the insurance companies to extract more money from their Clients or eliminate them altogether. They want their cake, icing, candles and everything else on the table but don’t want to clean up the mess when it happens.

And as if that isn’t bad enough, after collecting exorbitant fees for years, if you have a claim, then they fight you tooth and nail for every dime.

And just today, there are two bills that will allow Citizens to increase premiums 25% a year. If my math is correct, in four years, that would be around 100% increase. Everyone better get those wind mit credits while they can. In four years they will be wiped away.:mrgreen::mrgreen:

Follow this link

There are also some other interesting items in the bill.

No, Eric it sounds like you have always carried what is known as “full cverage” if so you have always carried what is required by the lender. Auto insurance coverage is acually broken into several catagories but the state only requires that you carry PIP and I think liability insurance at fairly low coverage levels. Read your loan documents, my guess is you never have, and you will see that what I’m saying is true. The dealership where you purchased your car reported all your insurance information to your lender. I used to be a finance manager at a major car dealership and it was in every loan document I ever saw and it has nothing to due with credit worthiness it to do with the lender protecting the loan asset. In fact I know of several situations where someone changed insurance companies and the old company reported the policy termination to the lender and the lender was not notified of the new coverage and the lender secured new collision coverage at a pretty high premium to cover the car. This is also in the loan document. Most people that drive newer cars carry full coverage so that their car will be covered in all situations. But people that drive old beaters may only carry the state required which is PIP and liability at the lowest allowable coverage limits. This is because there is a point where it may not make financial sense as the cost of the policy merges with the value of the car to carry collision. Understand collision or comprehensive as it is also known protects your car not the other person’s car.

I am not in favor of the government forcing anyone to do anything about home insurance. However, that also includes not forcing an insurance company write a policy on a home they deem to be a poor risk.

Nope. Every new car I bought they just wanted to see proof of insurance, PIP and Liability.
You would have to know that when I buy a new car, I don’t do it like others who find themselves upside down for four years. I control the deal and if the dealer doesn’t meet my terms, I walk out. I don’t play their “four-square” game or any other nonsense. If we can’t come to an agreement in one hour, I walk out as well.

Now, we have full coverage because of our child, but it wasn’t a requirement and the Durango has been paid off for a year and a half.

I think the insurance companies have gotten away with murder here. The want to sell you insurance for your car, boat or whatever else you have, but if they lose a little money on the homeowners insurance, the pull out of the State. Funny how things that happen in our business are considered the “cost of doing business” but with the insurance companies, they can just leave.

If they can write one policy, they should be forced to write all policies and not “cherry-pick” what they want.

It would be like a home inspector saying, “OK, I’ll do your home inspections, but, I don’t do the roof because it may fail, but I am still going to charge you the same price”.

Eric.
You know insurance company’s lobbied like bears to have the game fixed in there favor. Its the American political way.

Hello Everyone. Thanks for the feedback. It is appreciated!

M.S.

Citizens underwriters interpret their own manual differently- it is the job of the insurance agent to fight it out with them concerning their mistakes.

Anybody got a copy of meekers 4 point form?

You arent doing a home inspection- electrical for example, the real biggie is single strand aluminium- if the stove or dryer is new stranded aluminium (and up to code) DON’T put anything in the report because it is a gamble if the underwriter knows anything but the word ALUMINUM.

My wife, the insurance agent deals with this stuff daily- if the customers agent wont fight for them then they need to get a new agent- not your job but help the agent by giving the ins co no ‘extra ammo’ to shoot the customer with- dont hide stuff but dont add anything above and dont even think about beyond…

meekers right in several threads- (not his words but…) Less is MORE for your customer regarding 4 points.

thx for ‘listening’ to my rant…(still a student in this but learning from nearly all you folks…)

thank you all.

Bill

it is on my website. Just add total amps and when updated if you can tell.

You do not have to be ashamed to agree with me. It happens to the best of them occasionally. send me regular email if you have any questions.

I see it as a complement Mr.Meeker.
Everyone knows you are a well rounded experienced individual.

Hey as long as someone agrees once and a while I’m happy. :slight_smile:

Even a busted clock is right twice a day. :wink: