AKA Sub-Panel ground wire jumper

Inspected a 66 year old home today with an updated 100 amp AKA sub-panel (main disconnected was located outside below the meter base) I noticed there was a ground wire (green wire) jumping from the neutral bar to the ground bar, would this mean the two bars are bonded together. If so this would be a safety issue and should be corrected ?? Thanks in advance

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As long as the equipment grounding bus is properly bonded to the enclosure the jumper must be removed. The main is located on the same structure?

The equipment ground bus bar had plastic washers at ends with screws going through them into back of panel, did NOT see a bonding screw (green screw) or jumper strap screwed into panel ??


From time to time I look around and see posts that sometimes appear to be unanswered to the level that i feel the OP leaves with the proper understanding of what the experts response is conveying.

First and foremost…Robert is 100% correct and I have come to expect nothing less that perfection from him. The concern for me is the OP (Sam’s) followup response.

Now the question and image. While I must admit and as most of you know my eyes are not what they used to be in terms of looking at online images (Diabetes…sorry(. However, what concerns me is the statement below.

If this is the case you would have a floating grounded (neutral bus) that is connected via the green wire to the grounding bus and no mention of this panel having the equipment grounding terminal bus directly connected to the enclosure. You essentially have two floating bus assemblies with none connected to the metal cabinet…

While we all understand (hopefully after over 10 years of my harping about it on this forum) that the grounded (neutral) bus has to be isolated from contact the metal enclosure, you may refer to it as “floating” if you wish. However, the bus with the EGC’s (Equipment Grounding Conductors) has to be directly connected to the metal cabinet for any OCPD to function properly.

Again I may be missing it in this image and the OP never actually replied accurately back to Robert’s important question. If the response is accurate in the OP’s follow-up response in post 3…then you have a huge issue on your hands.

So I am hoping Sam ended up getting this correct in the end. Also if the images show something I am not seeing remember I am going off of the actual responses to formulate my worries in regards to the this installation.

So with the above said…What is the FIX?

  1. Remove the green (wire) conductor that connects the two separate bus bars together.
  2. make sure that the Grounded (neutral) conductors are terminated on the floating bus on the right. Provided it is indeed floating. (Never Assume…Always Verify)
  3. make sure that the Equipment Grounding conductors are terminated on a cabinet bonded bus bar on left…Yes, they need to bond that bus bar to the metal enclosure.

Now you have separation and have removed the likelihood of objectionable current and a dangerous current flow situation not to mention you have now met the NEC minimum safety code requirements for a remote distribution panel.

Paul, Just a quick question for you as the better qualified authority I see on this forum. I am in CA and in my area in the few cases where there is a meter socket and single main disconnect, the panel is directly opposite on the garage interior. In this case the determination is made by the AHJ that that panel is in fact the MAIN panel. Limitation is the conductors between the main disconnect can not be longer than 2.5 feet. In this case I never call a neutral and ground bonding issue as AHJ says it is main panel. I do call if there is no bar or jumper to the panel case. Do you agree?

Well I do thank you for the compliments I would probably say there are many on here equally as qualified as me. Just visit another forum and your opinion of me may drop…lol…but none the less thank you for the nice statement.

If you are saying that on the outside of the garage you have a meter enclosure (not service equipment as we know) and an exterior service disconnection means which is feeding a interior panel inside the garage then the panel inside would be the remote distribution panel and a separation of grounded and grounding conductors is required.

Now if you have a meter enclosure on the outside and it directly supplies the interior panel (back to back install) then the service disconnection means is located in the interior panel (or it should be) and those are service conductors from the meter to the interior service cabinet. In that situation then the grounded and grounding share the same terminal point and the length of service conductors into the building will be limited by 230.70(A)(1) to which no real length is demanded as that is open to the AHJ’s interpretation. I happen to believe nearest point of entry is the exact point it enters the structure but then again how flexible would that be…so usually its allowed to be 2-5 feet depending on AHJ’s desire to be a NICE GUY.

Hope I answered your question…if I did not please let me know which part I need to clarify fella.

Yes basically what you said with the exception being the AHJ is saying even though the service disconnect is on the exterior the fact that the exterior and interior panels are back to back the interior panel is being considered the main. I have always had an issue with this because it is not clear in the NEC and the AHJ has the final say. Just curious if I am missing something. And by the way my comments are from personal observation and I always reserve the right to change in the future LOL. Thanks Paul.

The service disconnect will only be in one location in your scenario. If it’s on the outside of the structure then the panel on the inside is a “sub-panel”.

It is very clear in the NEC in my opinion. The location of the service disconnection means is established outside. The concept that he is more than likely not understanding is section 230.91…but I guess he lacks the understanding of the terms “immediately adjacent thereto”…:wink:

Anyway now you can call him up and set him straight fella…little victories baby…little victories !