What are the two terminals above the main breaker used for? For adding a distribution panel ?
In this case there supplying the water heater breaker, which I know isn’t right, but I was just curious what they would be used for.
Thanks in advance.
I’m not sure what they were intended for, but they were certainly NOT intended for a direct tap like that. . .
I have not observed idea why they have terminal screws there either ,but am also wondering why there are fuses on the right side of the picture with red wire behind them.
Spare parts, is my guess. . .
Hi to all,
I’m just not seeing a problem there, the top breaker is back-feeding the panel, and the top lugs are feeding the adjacent breaker panel that’s all.
Regards
Gerry
Gerry, my eyes cannot see where the wires go but, Joshua said:
The wires were feeding the water heater breaker panel in the lower right corner.
I hear you Larry, I had to blow it up, but that’s where they go.
As to the intent of the top lugs, I don’t know, maybe it was designed for the configuration it is in, my point was that electrically there appears to be nothing wrong with the set up as the main will disconnect those lugs.
Regards
Gerry
Makes sense as the feeders go straight to the main and not the breaker bar.
So what protects these wires from overcurrent and possible fire?
I don’t like it.
I hear what you’re saying Gerry, but (IMHO) there should be no direct taps from those bus bars. I know it’s a short run, but those 12AWG or 10AWG conductors are essentially “protected” by a 100 amp (guessing) breaker.
It’s been my experience that taps to the bus bars are generally reserved for components “within” the same panel, such as with split bus panels.
I hear you Jeff, the conductors appear to be 10’s minimum as they are stranded, they could be an 8 but I don’t think so, the panel they feed is reported as a water heater which are normally 30 amp, I would contend that the feeders are drawing their overcurrent protection from the water heater breaker rather than the 100 amp main.
I’m like you I can rationalise it all day long, but it still “looks” wrong, maybe one of our electrical pros will comment further.
Regards
Gerry
Another pic, close up. I believe its 12 THHN wire. This was going to the water heater breaker (box) and then left that breaker with proper 10 ga. for the 30 amp breaker to the water heater.
Not sure about this setup but when I used to inspect industrial machinery short runs were allowed under certain conditions as long as they terminated at a correctly sized breaker.
NFPA 79 was the standard I used.
I no longer have a copy unfortunately.
Ok…in this senerio ( which is a GOOD one BTW ) one has to determine if the tap rules of 240.21 apply and if the tap rules of 210.19 apply.
Firstly while I have had much debate with the NFPA over this issue, the logic of today is a feeder tap can only be the tapping of a Feeder which is a conductor in itself. They currently do not recognize the busbar as a feeder which it rightly so is not. The application in regards to XFMRS and secondary “taps” is different so we can’t lump the two.
The NEC tells us that we have to protect a conductor at it’s ampacity and only allows for no overcurrent protection at the “tap” provided it meets the requirements of the NEC in the references I gave prior. So, lets " Cut and Paste" some code…
**II. Location.
240.21 Location in Circuit. **Overcurrent protection shall
be provided in each ungrounded circuit conductor and shall
be located at the point where the conductors receive their
supply except as specified in 240.21(A) through (H). Conductors
supplied under the provisions of 240.21(A) through (H)
shall not supply another conductor except through an overcurrent
protective device meeting the requirements of 240.4.
**(A) Branch-Circuit Conductors. **Branch-circuit tap conductors
meeting the requirements specified in 210.19 shall
be permitted to have overcurrent protection as specified in
210.20.
**(B) Feeder Taps. **Conductors shall be permitted to be
tapped, without overcurrent protection at the tap, to a feeder as
[FONT=Times New Roman][size=2]specified in 240.21(B)(1) through (B)(5). The provisions of
240.4(B) shall not be permitted for tap conductors.
Lets define a feeder…
**[FONT=Times New Roman][size=2]Feeder. **All circuit conductors between the service equipment,
the source of a separately derived system, or other
power supply source and the final branch-circuit overcurrent
device.
And just for clarification, I am in the camp that believes the bus is the best place to tap if the buss is designed to allow it and apply the rules of 240.21 but right now it appears only Mike Holt and Me agree…the NFPA does not…which is all good as I can enforce anything they would like as I govern the word and not my wishes.
Obviously if the conductors ( and my eyes are not that good ) is a 12 AWG then we have a problem unless of course 240.21 would apply…and I do not believe under the NFPA’s view it applies. Opinions are like…well…everyone has one and thats perfectly great. BTW…it is always perfectly acceptable to disagree with me dispite what some might say.
So does 210.19 apply, lets look at a bit of “Cut and Paste” on that also-
Nah…since we are not talking about a “Branch Circuit” in this case we wont even dabble into that part to save time and the effort to Cut and Paste by the C & P king himself…
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Thanks Paul, that cleared it up
As clear as MUD…right…lol
Yep. As I suspected, Gerry and I are correct 
lol…I did not read it…what did you all say…
We are on opposite sides of the fence. . .
I said “no good,” he said “no problem.”