can't even imagine what is responsible....

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#1

Originally Posted By: jmichalski
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Twin home in a very hilly part of the city, about 75 years old. Under the front porch of most homes is what used to be the coal room/chute. Many converted them into part of the basement once they stopped using coal.


This room is under the porch. The ceiling (above grade about 1 ft) is WET, condensation dripping down, from the left front side(adjoining home side) - no leaks can be seen, no wet spots on the front exterior wall, no moisture signs on the adjoining home. Water service pipes enter the home 5 feet below this ceiling. Above area is the unheated front porch.


[ Image: http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/1/100_1220.JPG ]

It hasn't rained here recently, although it snowed about 1/16th of an inch on Sunday. Any gueses as to the water source?


ITEM #2
The basement floor in this room sounds almost hollow! The right side of the cement floor is bulging upward like it is going to give birth! A small crack exists, and shinig aflashlight inot it, it loks like there is some empty space below the cement. But why - exterior drainage problems and water erosion? And if it feels "hollow" below, why would the cement bulge up and not down? It's ahrd to see here, but this is what I am talking about . The wet looking part actually bulges up about 5-6 inches.



[ Image: http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/1/100_1221.JPG ]

Last question: Since this room/basement area provides no support to the home directly, and only supports the porch above (which for other reasons may have to come off) what should be the level of concern here?

Thoughts please...

#2

Originally Posted By: mkober
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Joseph,


First things first: Cement (actually, portland cement) is a gray powder which usually comes in bags or bulk, and is one of the components of CONCRETE. You will be more credible if you refer to the floor, ceiling or walls as concrete instead of "cement."

Ceiling Moisture: There must be a source of water, somewhere. Have you looked carefully under the floor of the porch? If not from a leaking supply line or hose bib, possibly a downspout from the roof's gutter system. Or even something as innocuous as a long-abandoned stash of de-icing salt (calcium chloride), which will constantly suck moisture out of the air and deposit it. Does the home have a long history of liberal de-icers being applied to the porch walking surface? The efflorescence visible in the photo could be either soluble salts in the concrete itself or from some external source.

Floor Bulge: A certain amount of concrete delamination is not unusual, although what you're describing sounds very unusual. Would almost appear to be some sort of internal expansion. Can't tell much from the photo. You would do well to document your observations for your client, and also suggest further evaluation by a qualified foundation specialist.

--
Michael J. Kober, P.E. and H.I.

"NACHI Member and Proud Of It!"

#3

Originally Posted By: jmichalski
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Michael,


Thanks for the tip (I knew that, but I never keep it straight!)

As far as the ceiling under the porch, the only visible area is what you see in the picture. Hose bibs are to the rear of the property. The exterior walls are dry as is the portion above it. That is why I was considering that perhaps there is a leak next door.

Reflecting, There is a missing downspout, which appeared to create a problem on the roof above the porch (2 floors above this wet ceiling). I have to guess that the water is running down the house wall (since there is no downspout) and finding a way to travel from the wall surface across this ceiling. I would have expected to see wetness somewhere on the walls above though....

I am at a loss, though and already informed the client that this is going to require a specialist...

#4

Originally Posted By: jhagarty
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Joe:


Is this house in Philadelphia?

Many times the Downspout piping for the porch roof is finished within the interior wall of the front porch to the sanitary and/or storm (depending on which part of the city) drain line below in the basement.

Any indication of leakage at the floor area?

--
Joseph Hagarty

HouseMaster / Main Line, PA
joseph.hagarty@housemaster.com
www.householdinspector.com

Phone: 610-399-9864
Fax : 610-399-9865

HouseMaster. Home inspections. Done right.

#5

Originally Posted By: jmichalski
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


joe,


It is in Philly (Roxborough) and the expected downspout termination point is a pipe sticking up from the sidewalk next to the porch (which would tie into the drain line.)

I was not able to see any other leaking, but I can't think of any other possiblity for this water. The floor area is heaving or delaminating, and - like the rest of the basement - has some water stains. The walls all have efflorescence in this part of the basement.

It is the fact that there were actual water droplets that threw me so much. That would indicate active water, right? And I didn't see any - and I don't know about out by you, but here we didn't get enough precip or snow to create that kind of leaking (or at least I don't think we did!)

I'm stumped.

#6

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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It sounds to me like you have a hot basement, with an unheated space above the concrete slab (very cold on the other side of the slab) which is causing condensation on the heated side of the slab.


I really doubt, from what you are saying, that the water is coming down two floors, through the porch roof and concrete slab and deciding all on its own to hang on the underside of the slab. Not likely at all.

Most of the time, it is enough to put a doorway in this area which could be kept closed to keep the temperature low enough so a peaceful coexistence can be reached between the top of the slab and the bottom of the slab.

Also, don't forget that concrete is a porous material and if water is puddling on the slab, some of that moisture will "wick" its way through.

Joe Myers

#7

Originally Posted By: jmichalski
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Thanks, Joe. There is a lot of moisture inthe basement, and it is pretty warm as compared to the front area. I have to recommend a foundation evaluation for the floor delamination and wall deterioration anyway so they might as well check out the water while theyre there!


Thanks for the input. Phoenixville, eh? Just down 113...we might have to have a beer sometime!

#8

Originally Posted By: jmyers
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Joe,


You are certainly welcome. I find a lot of this same situation around the area, since coal was so common in the older homes around this area and especially around Philly.

I would be happy to have a cold one with you, but since I don't drink I have a preference for a nice cold Coke, hold the ice! ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)

Joe Myers