Carbon Monoxide

Originally Posted By: vmitchinson
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Over the last several years I have herd various level of CO being acceptabel for 8 hours exposure but none for continous exposure in the home. Last summer I flaged 1 PPM from the furnace and recommended that the gas co be contacted to confirm my findings and take remedial action. The Gas co rep told my client that 25 PPM was OK. She had a baby and a 2 year old in the house. After thinking about this I decided to do some research and came up with various recommendations that had a low of 9 PPM to a high of 50 PPm all for 8 hours exposure. The only limits for home exposure was the World Health Organization. I have wrote a short summary of my findings that you are welcome to read on mny web site. What do you think of my observations and what has your experience been when you find CO in the home you inspect and what were the reactions from the realtors. owners and your clients?


Originally Posted By: jbushart
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CO limits for in-home breathing. When you site government standards, remind yourself (and your client) that the government standard for meat processing will allow up to a certain amount of rat feces before they will recall it.


If you find levels of CO in the home, it is because there is a faulty combustion device or venting system that needs to be identified.

CO accumulates in the bloodstream. A figure that could be acceptable to me for an 8-hour period at work (a government standard) means that it considers that I will be away from it for 16-hours of that same day to work it off. If I am confined to my home for 48-72-96 etc hours, what seems to be a small amount can continue to build up in my bloodstream and replace the oxygen that my red blood cells would normally carry.

Our government is comfortable allowing a certain amount of poison in my air and rat s h i t in my lunch meat - but I prefer to eliminate both to zero.


--
Home Inspection Services of Missouri
www.missourihomeinspection.com

"We're NACHI. Get over it."

www.monachi.org

Originally Posted By: dedwards
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I have to leave for a few minutes to go throw out the package of hot dogs I bought today. Be right back.


Originally Posted By: jhagarty
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The CO Level in the home should not exceed the CO Level outside of the home.


A level in the home that exceeds that of the exterior is indicative of a condition that requires correction.


--
Joseph Hagarty

HouseMaster / Main Line, PA
joseph.hagarty@housemaster.com
www.householdinspector.com

Phone: 610-399-9864
Fax : 610-399-9865

HouseMaster. Home inspections. Done right.

Originally Posted By: jbushart
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dedwards wrote:
I have to leave for a few minutes to go throw out the package of hot dogs I bought today. Be right back.


Oooohhhhh, let me tell you about dem hot dogs..... ![icon_eek.gif](upload://yuxgmvDDEGIQPAyP9sRnK0D0CCY.gif)


--
Home Inspection Services of Missouri
www.missourihomeinspection.com

"We're NACHI. Get over it."

www.monachi.org

Originally Posted By: bkelly2
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http://www.epa.gov/iaq/pubs/coftsht.html


No agreed upon level safe exposure. Some chemicals can cause false readings of some CO monitors.


--
"I used to be disgusted, Now I try to Be amused"-Elvis Costello

Originally Posted By: Jay Moge
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dedwards wrote:
I have to leave for a few minutes to go throw out the package of hot dogs I bought today. Be right back.


lips and a$$holes Doug, i call it prime rib....in a tube. ![icon_cool.gif](upload://oPnLkqdJc33Dyf2uA3TQwRkfhwd.gif)


Originally Posted By: wdecker
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I call out any CO.


I also put my CO detector right near the vent hood on water heaters (if they have them) and fire up the water heater.

Then, after the inspection, I go outside and have a smoke.

![eusa_dance.gif](upload://s9dv24YwSSRLNpgOOSxL1BkwUQ9.gif)

But that's just me.


--
Will Decker
Decker Home Services
Skokie, IL 60076
wjd@DeckerHomeServices.com

Originally Posted By: vmitchinson
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I also put my CO detector right near the vent hood on water heaters (if they have them) and fire up the water heater.


I have been using a smoke stick but the CO meter is much better. That is so damn obvious. Why didn't I think of it!


Originally Posted By: Gary Reecher
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Have compiled links to sites about carbon monoxide. Hope you can find some useful information there.


http://www.essex1.com/people/mechacc/carbon%20monoxide%20links.htm



Gary Reecher, CM


HVAC Service Technician


MechAcc's Carbon Monoxide Site Links

Originally Posted By: lkage
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Excellant site for info:


http://www.coexperts.com/


--
"I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him."
Galileo Galilei

Originally Posted By: Caoimh?n P. Connell
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Hello Vern-


The current ASHRAE standard references the Canadian Exposure Guideline for Residential Indoor Air Quality for carbon monoxide (CO) as less than 11 ppm for an eight hour exposure. Older versions of ASHRAE referenced the WHO CO level of 2 ppm. I do not like the current ASHRAE CO reference, and I don?t use it. I much prefer the WHO reference, and I use that instead.

Although I would strictly disagree with James B?s comment that there is no safe level of CO, I would agree with the sentiment behind the comment, that if concentrations above 2 ppm are found in a home, the source should be understood. CO is normally found in outdoor air, it is simply a natural component of normal air; therefore, we know that there actually are safe levels of CO and the human body is quite able to handle these normal background levels.

Furthermore, Mr. Bushart?s comments are rather off-base, in that small amounts of CO cannot accumulate in the bloodstream. In fact, CO doesn?t ?accumulate? in the bloodstream at all. CO is in dynamic equilibrium with the breathable air, and exhibits an half-life of about 60 minutes (at sea level). Also, Mr. Bushart?s comment about CO displacing the oxygen in the blood is also incorrect ? quite the opposite, in fact. The primary metabolite of concern is carboxyhaemoglobin which upsets the ?cooperativity? of the normal haem molecule, resulting in MORE oxygen in the blood. CO causes oxygen to accumulate in the blood to unusually elevated levels. This is because the ?cooperativity? has been upset, and the blood cannot properly release the oxygen to where it is needed. That is why persons who experience CO poisoning exhibit flushed skin ? because of their oxygen rich blood. If Mr. B wants zero CO in his breathing air, he will have to move to Venus.

However, outdoor levels can be excessive in urban environments, and so I would also disagree with the comment that indoor levels should not exceed outdoor levels, since I have personally measured outdoor CO concentrations of 65 ppm in urban settings (indicating that 64 ppm in a building would be ?acceptable.?)

Brian is quite correct in that some chemicals will result in false readings. Similarly, human exposure to some chemicals can result in ?CO poisoning,? even in the absence of CO.

Vern- any gas company rep who stated that 25 ppm CO was OK in an house should, in my opinion, be removed from their current role until they have received proper training. I would have no hesitation to evacuate a school or a home if I measured 25 ppm sustained.

I would be happy to pursue the matter further.

Cheers,
Caoimh?n P. Connell
Forensic Industrial Hygienist

www.forensic-applications.com

<SMALL> (The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

AMDG </SMALL>


Originally Posted By: rwand1
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Low levels should be a concern with anyone with a heart condition, or who is pregnant or has children in the house.


From what I have heard anyway.


--
Raymond Wand
Alton, ON
The value of experience is not in seeing much,
but in seeing wisely. - Sir William Osler 1905
NACHI Member
Registered Home Inspector (OAHI)
http://www.raymondwand.ca

Originally Posted By: jhagarty
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Caoimh?n P. Connell wrote:


However, outdoor levels can be excessive in urban environments, and so I would also disagree with the comment that indoor levels should not exceed outdoor levels, since I have personally measured outdoor CO concentrations of 65 ppm in urban settings (indicating that 64 ppm in a building would be ?acceptable.?)


![icon_eek.gif](upload://yuxgmvDDEGIQPAyP9sRnK0D0CCY.gif)

Where have you encountered 65 ppm Carbon Monoxide CO in an exterior environmment that made 64 ppm CO acceptable indoors??

Was this a single sampling or sampling conducted over a measured period of exposure?

You are speaking of Residential conditions encountered?


--
Joseph Hagarty

HouseMaster / Main Line, PA
joseph.hagarty@housemaster.com
www.householdinspector.com

Phone: 610-399-9864
Fax : 610-399-9865

HouseMaster. Home inspections. Done right.

Originally Posted By: bkelly2
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Caoimh?n P. Connell wrote:
Hello Vern-

The current ASHRAE standard references the Canadian Exposure Guideline for Residential Indoor Air Quality for carbon monoxide (CO) as less than 11 ppm for an eight hour exposure. Older versions of ASHRAE referenced the WHO CO level of 2 ppm. I do not like the current ASHRAE CO reference, and I don?t use it. I much prefer the WHO reference, and I use that instead.

Although I would strictly disagree with James B?s comment that there is no safe level of CO, I would agree with the sentiment behind the comment, that if concentrations above 2 ppm are found in a home, the source should be understood. CO is normally found in outdoor air, it is simply a natural component of normal air; therefore, we know that there actually are safe levels of CO and the human body is quite able to handle these normal background levels.

Furthermore, Mr. Bushart?s comments are rather off-base, in that small amounts of CO cannot accumulate in the bloodstream. In fact, CO doesn?t ?accumulate? in the bloodstream at all. CO is in dynamic equilibrium with the breathable air, and exhibits an half-life of about 60 minutes (at sea level). Also, Mr. Bushart?s comment about CO displacing the oxygen in the blood is also incorrect ? quite the opposite, in fact. The primary metabolite of concern is carboxyhaemoglobin which upsets the ?cooperativity? of the normal haem molecule, resulting in MORE oxygen in the blood. CO causes oxygen to accumulate in the blood to unusually elevated levels. This is because the ?cooperativity? has been upset, and the blood cannot properly release the oxygen to where it is needed. That is why persons who experience CO poisoning exhibit flushed skin ? because of their oxygen rich blood. If Mr. B wants zero CO in his breathing air, he will have to move to Venus.

However, outdoor levels can be excessive in urban environments, and so I would also disagree with the comment that indoor levels should not exceed outdoor levels, since I have personally measured outdoor CO concentrations of 65 ppm in urban settings (indicating that 64 ppm in a building would be ?acceptable.?)

Brian is quite correct in that some chemicals will result in false readings. Similarly, human exposure to some chemicals can result in ?CO poisoning,? even in the absence of CO.

Vern- any gas company rep who stated that 25 ppm CO was OK in an house should, in my opinion, be removed from their current role until they have received proper training. I would have no hesitation to evacuate a school or a home if I measured 25 ppm sustained.

I would be happy to pursue the matter further.

Cheers,
Caoimh?n P. Connell
Forensic Industrial Hygienist

www.forensic-applications.com

<SMALL> (The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

AMDG </SMALL>


We have missed your comments.


--
"I used to be disgusted, Now I try to Be amused"-Elvis Costello

Originally Posted By: Caoimh?n P. Connell
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Hello Joseph:


The 65 ppm CO concentrations were made in downtown Denver, during the winter months, and the levels were sustained. I don?t recall what the time-weighted CO average was, however, it was in the mid 30?s. The sampling monitor was literally on a busy street corner at about 16th and Broadway.

If the only criteria for CO is that indoor levels should be lower than outdoor levels, then we could have extremely elevated ?acceptable? levels. Again, I disagree with that criteria and recommend using the WHO ?level of no concern? (2 ppm) as a minimum guidance.

Cheers,
Caoimh?n P. Connell
Forensic Industrial Hygienist

www.forensic-applications.com

(The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

AMDG



Originally Posted By: kmcmahon
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In firefighter class, we learned the following:


Up to 100ppm No symptoms-No damage
200ppm - mild headaches
400ppm Headache after 1-2 hours
800ppm Headache after 45min; Nausea, collapse, and unconsciousness after 2 hours.

the list gets worse from here.


--
Wisconsin Home Inspection, ABC Home Inspection LLC

Search the directory for a Wisconsin Home Inspector

Originally Posted By: mthomas2
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> I call out any CO.


> I also put my CO detector right near the vent hood on water heaters (if they have them) and fire up the water heater.

William,

I've been leery of CO detection largely because of what I've read about the need for periodic recalibration of testers if inspectors are to be on firm ground in reporting such results, and about potential liability issues involved in such testing. I notice you are also in IL, can you share anything about the guidelines you are using for such testing and reporting the results, and how you developed them?


Originally Posted By: rwand1
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It is not uncommon to get spillage from natural draft water heaters when they first fire up until the flue warms and starts to draw.


As to minimum ppm at 100 what about people with breathing problems and young children?


--
Raymond Wand
Alton, ON
The value of experience is not in seeing much,
but in seeing wisely. - Sir William Osler 1905
NACHI Member
Registered Home Inspector (OAHI)
http://www.raymondwand.ca

Originally Posted By: kmcmahon
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



The table is not absolute because they do not take into account variations in breathing rate or length of exposure or physical condition.



Wisconsin Home Inspection, ABC Home Inspection LLC


Search the directory for a Wisconsin Home Inspector