Ok, that’s fine…as long as your fearing the client discovering google and the next inspector is not the reason why you make the recommendation.
Btw, I have never called out a single Challenger and never had a single phone call.
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Was there a witnessed overload? An overheated component may not be drawing enough to trip the brea,er.
Sorry @ruecker. My AC is broken and so is my attitude. I like the narrative about historical concerns. It should work very well for anyone that is inclined to bring this to their clients attention.
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Yeah I gotcha Jim and I don’t disagree. But being you can look at this I /sq R damage obviously there was more amperage than needed there too trip a breaker. Plus the panel in this kitchen was 1/4 deep in grease! 
Is that a manufacturer defect or a maintenance defect?
Lol, no worries here buddy.
The only people with real data on panel failure work for insurance companies. They, if they bothered to catalog it, would have results of pre-insurance inspections to identify the panels, plus claims history, to work from.
Everyone else is winging it.
And prone to creating false claims based on shadows.
Except for J. ARONSTEIN, an engineer who went and tested some 3000 breakers, and published results on http://www.fpe-info.org/
Double-pole Stab-Lok® breakers, both full width and half width, account for almost all of the “critical safety failures” (failure to trip at 200% of rated current).
J. ARONSTEIN gets both into the breakers themselves, and panel defects.
I my practice and area I encounter ancient panels of all sorts all the time, including FPE. I’m pretty happy with FPE subpanels in good condition, provided there’s an upstream beaker that’s not a double pole FPE. I focus on getting owners to apply improvements, that that’s the lower hanging fruit in a case like an apartment with dozens of subpanels.
Pushing old panels back onto an Electrical Contractor who profits only if the panel is replaced does not do it for me.
I don’t have an inherent concern about Challenger Panels. There’s lower hanging fruit to pick. The CSPS recall was minor, an event, but affecting a tiny number of breakers:
These type HAGF-15 and type HAGF-20 circuit breakers were manufactured between February 22, 1988 and April 29, 1988, and most were sold nationwide to electrical product distributors during this period. Some may have been sold to consumers by retail hardware or lumber outlets. Approximately 9000 of these devices have not been located, some of which are believed to have been installed in residences.
Certain Challenger half size breakers are sketchy. Note that little clip, which shares a single lug with the neighboring breaker:
If there’s actually a Challenger problem, I’ll be it is with the half breakers.
Obsolete breaker kings: https://www.breakerking.com/ https://jrlelectricsupplyinc.com/
I don’t write up Challengers. I might add that I don’t see many. As far as defective breakers, you can run into them with any brand. I had a GE breaker fail to trip on my own house many years ago when I shorted a circuit.
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Like it or not current Eaton BR panels are a Challenger design, which is part of the reasons I call them “Zinsco II”, BR panels also used Zinsco mains for 150-225A main breaker panels, until after Eaton bought the Westinghouse distribution div. which Challenger was part of. As much as I dislike Challenger, & Eaton BR, they are just cheap, but are listed products.
Because Florida has what are called 4-point inspections to get insurance. Most insurance companies will request one from if you try to change insurance companies. Some insurance companies might ask for one before renewing your policy. I do them every day of the week. Too much to write what it involves. You can Google it, but it’s basically the condition of the roof, HVAC, electrical, and plumbing.
Yes, I understand this. Very “Florida” indeed. Again, Florida has the their boots on the throats of home owners.
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4 Point Form Fill-able.pdf (123.9 KB)
4 Point Form - everything better be perfect or no coverage
If I come across a Challenger electrical (service or distribution) panel that does not appear to have been upgraded I will add this into the body of the report and leave it up to my client to decide.
“At time of the inspection there was a Challenger electrical (service or distribution) panel installed at this residence. While at one time they were extremely popular and were installed in many areas throughout the country. Challenger electrical panels are known to have a higher than average rate of circuit breaker failure which can result in overheating and hazardous conditions. Even though there was no visible defects observed within the panel, our recommendations are for further evaluation from a qualified electrical contractor as to the safety, integrity and performance of this electric panel and any corrective repair or upgrades that may be needed. It is also recommended to check with your insurance company for insurability as some insurance companies may deny a policy.”
My understanding is typically the Challenger breakers are replaced with an updated breaker Type BR/Type C from Bryant, Cutler Hammer or Eaton.
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I’m more concerned when older breakers use the six hand rule, and are in the main. If such a breaker jams you get a direct connection to the main with essentially unlimited amps. If the old breaker is a subpanel, then it’s limited by the main breaker, and much closer to the safety margins of the intervening wire. (For example a 20A circuit on a subpanel that’s fed by a 60A breaker, has less potential for trouble than a 20A breaker on the main. Likely the 60A breaker will trip before there’s a serious problem).
So if budget is limited, the first breakers to update are the ones in the main.
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That is not a Challenger panel, it’s ITE/Seimens.
I’ve been searching for write/wrong info on Challenger. It’s challenging.
I think I’m going to mention it in the report. They can investigate themselves or hire an electrician to evaluate. Funny thing is, I have 30 years of electrical experience, but haven’t ever had to deal with this side of it, mostly industrial. Always learning.
Breakers Type A2020, I can’t figure out the difference vs Type “C”.
That panel looks immaculate.
There’s risk to messing with it.
I’d write soft on this one.
Look super careful for any overheating, discoloration on wires, maybe the sparky can check torque. But man, that panel really needs to be up on some’s wall as a textbook job.
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I know this is standard in our industry and I do it plenty but it is kind of funny. What do we expect the electrician to say? They install things. An electrician is no more able to advise someone than anyone else that researches things on the internet.
We had an issue come up when one the inspectors in my company wrote similar on the some older plumbing. The plumber got out there are basically asked, “what do you want me to replace?” The whole thing kind of blew up in our face as everything was working just fine but just a bit old. Of course, an equal number of plumbers will walk in a house with old plumbing (or electrical or whatever) and tell people the HI is a blind fool and should have told you that everything MUST be replaced. We kind of can’t win in this biz at times.
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I guess it could come down to how the narrative is worded. If it says “recommend a plumber replace older plumbing,” I suppose the plumber might wonder why anyone would do that.
But if the narrative says “recommend a plumber further evaluate and make any repairs deemed necessary,” then the plumber shouldn’t be asking anyone else what he should replace.
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