Citiznes Four Point and Wind Mit Questions

At Suncoast ASHI’s annual conference, Suntech last weekend, we had two folks from Citizens Insurance for a QA session about Four Points and Wind Mits.

Douglas Hagemand is the Operations Manager for Personal Lines Underwriting. Antoine Herelle is the Personal Lines Underwriting Supervisor.

We asked the following specific questions:

What is the standard of care for performing a Four Point?

Answer: The home inspector statute and rules, same as a for a home inspection.

Can anything on a home inspection report be left off of a Four Point?

Answer: They could not think of much, maybe a water softener that’s not working. (Not in the scope anyway.)

On a Wind Mit, when determining the roof perimeter, do you count on the lower roof or do you add the lower and upper roof perimeters together?

Answer: Add both together.

On a Wind Mit, for a clipped gable, do you count the entire length, or just the portion below the triangles at the ends.

Answer: Just the portion below the triangles at the end.

Hope this clears some things up for Florida Inspectors.

"The Second, third and fourth pictures are different partial views of a roof with a blue perimeter and red non-hip. Note that overlapping areas are not measured as part of the perimeter. "

whoopsie…

It was never in need of clearing up…for some of us…

As for the roof perimeter…there can only be one…and the answer they gave is incomplete. You add the areas together but you really don’t as most two-story homes, the first floor on one or in some instances, three sides, there is no lower roof perimeter.

I think some of those answers are incorrect/miss quoted or incomplete. I have reached out for some clarifications.

I have a better question, will instructors and inspectors now go back and correct all of the improperly completed forms they produced by not calculating the “total roof system perimeter” into roof geometry?

How many Florida families were denied the hip credit because roof perimeters were improperly calculated, set up by insurers by design. This is what happens when common sense goes out the window and people with no business teaching others wind mitigation get involved just to feel important. I can’t wrap my mind around the fact that instructors needed to be told by insurers…who’s the licensed construction expert here?

I am using some of the statements made here at my next presentation…should be interesting.

That’s why I asked the question.

I heard of this in a creditable place and this is what I said about it:

Why in the hell does citizens think they can MAKE UP their own way of interpreting the STATE wind mitigation form. It is not their decision to make. On a 4 point which is NOT a State form they have the right to demand whatever they want. The OIR-B1-1802 IS IN CHARGE OF THE WIN MITS AND WHAT IS ACCEPTABLE. I urge you to tell them to pound sand because the crap they reportaly stated is not taught in any class I know of. Please stop letting Citizens regulate the Insurance rules. It is the OIR S RESPONSIBLY to regulate citizens NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. Please stand up and do not accept their crap.

Mike, Citizens was only stating a fact, and one that we have been trying to tell you for over three years now. What you need to do is go read the law. It says that if you sign an inspection, any inspection, then your statutes apply, meaning you must follow the standards. Its really quite simple. And what two inspections do you do that require your signature?

Gee Mike, now you sound like me :wink:

The reason it’s not taught in any class is the individuals teaching inspectors have no idea what they are doing or how to interpret licensing laws. Insurers do not regulate inspectors, the DBPR does. Insurers do not regulate the building codes or systems/component slisted in the forms, the Florida Building Commission does. It’s that simple. The OIR regulates insurers…not the forms, not building codes, and not the inspectors who complete them.

It’s that simple…

I have personaly witnessed the litigation process in which the OIR-B1 1802 is presented as a code inspection, it’s rock solid. An inspector will loose that argument VERY TIME!

This is a movement that I don’t understand. The standard of care IMO should be whatever is on the form that you using. What’s the standard of care of a stand alone four point? And, what is the standard for these inspections performed by a Division 1 contractor or engineer that are not bound by the HI SOP? Why on earth would there be two sets of standards. You guys need to rethink this. FABI tried this, and was immediately rescinded as I recall.

This is very easy to understand.
You are inspecting a house, not a boat, not a cat, a house.
What standards would seem appropriate?

As for the wind mits, although it has been touted by some as a “code inspection”, there are also no set rules and the form is open to interpretation.

I agree with the measurements of all “roof perimeters”, except that I have never used perimeter to measure a roof. I was always taught that the area is what we are looking for, take for instance, measuring a roof for replacement.

I also disagree with the way the form is interpreted by insurance companies. But that would be another long discussion… :wink:

I am not talking about about the wind mit. I actually agree with including all roof edge dimensions as the total roof perimeter.

My concern is including every little minutia item in the 4pt that would normally go into a home inspection. Stand alone 4pt’s are not that inclusive.

If you use the Citizens form, and that is who we are talking about here, then this is on the last page:

The question is, how do we determine what is working as intended, etc…?
The answer is, we inspect it. The next question is How?
The answer is, as if we were performing a home inspection.

I realize that several individuals, especially contractors, like to use their own forms…for reasons only they know. I can speculate having seen several of these inspections that are one page and say everything is fine. I got called to do a 4-point on a home that the insurance company wouldn’t accept the contractors form. He did include pictures…one of which was the top of the water heater…which had no pipe on the TPR valve and cord and plug wiring on a 2014 water heater. Yet, no deficiencies were noted on the report.

Luckily, the guy found another insurance company and they accepted the original 4-point inspection. I had told him what my fee would be and that he might have a hard time getting insurance by the time I was done.

I have said this so many times in the last 23 years, " I only know how to do a home inspection one way". It doesn’t matter what form I am using, the information is still going to be the same.

Do I agree with the 4-point forms in their current configuration, State Farm, citizens, etc…? No. They are nothing more than watered down home inspections and I don’t believe in such a thing. Which is why I don’t do stand-alone inspections. It isn’t worth my time to do it for what others charge.

Then again, I do remember someone who stated on this very message board several times that there should be a standardized 4-point form…Who was that guy? ;-):wink:

I will try this one more time. Home inspectors are now licensed. When performing a home inspection service you must follow your statute, which says you are to follow your standards.

If you read your administrative code you will see that it says if you sign a document as a home inspector you must follow the statute. It’s that simple. If you want to make up your own rules, by all means go ahead. But don’t cry if and when someone decides to sue you and you lose. That has happened and is happening right now.

Before licensing you could do whatever you wanted to do. Licebsing has set the rules for you. Either follow them or suffer the consequences.

Not Me :slight_smile:

“I realize that several individuals, especially contractors, like to use their own forms…for reasons only they know. I can speculate having seen several of these inspections that are one page and say everything is fine. I got called to do a 4-point on a home that the insurance company wouldn’t accept the contractors form. He did include pictures…one of which was the top of the water heater…which had no pipe on the TPR valve and cord and plug wiring on a 2014 water heater. Yet, no deficiencies were noted on the report”

Now that you mention it, I was called last week to do a wind mitigation (post closing and previously inspected) and found (see photo) in the attic. Complete mess.
Owner is furious this wasn’t found during her $425 home inspection.

Obviously this attic is a mess. I’ve never seen anything like it. My question is on a home inspection how would you write it up? Insufficient engineering, recommend further evaluation by a licensed engineer.

I found the same condition once. My client purchased the subsequent house I inspected for him.

Hi Ben,

Please see below as there is a bit of confusion as to what is exactly needed for your Certified Four Point Inspector. Note the red Italicized items. They apparently are completely different. Could you please confirm which one I need to do to receive my Four Point Certificate.

Become a Certified Four Point Inspector™ page

1.Join InterNACHI as a member.

2.Complete InterNACHI’s certification requirements.
3.Complete the following InterNACHI free, online courses:
◦Advanced Electrical Inspection Training Course
◦Advanced HVAC Training for Home Inspectors Course
◦General Roof Inspection Video Course
Inspecting Water Heater Tanks Course

Logos and certification page

The Four Point Inspector logo is available for use by all InterNACHI Certified Home Inspectors who have successfully completed all of the following free online courses:

1.Advanced Electrical Inspection Training
2.Advanced HVAC Training for Inspectors
3.Residential Plumbing Overview for Inspectors, and

4.General Roof Inspection

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Greatly appreciated.

Tammy

What does it matter…you already have the logo on your website.

Also, in Florida, all you need is a HI license…which you obtained 3 months ago…