Yes and some old 14 looks a lot like #12. I have made that mistake more than once.
Jim I did as was suggested. I have a set of “wires” I put together when I started out. They range from 14 to 4/0. They stay in my inspection bucket. Though I’m used to small gauges, some of the bigger ones get me (when I don’t see any markings) so I’ll go get my set and compare them to see if I got it right.
Even if I’m fairly certain that I know a wire is incorrect (I.e. 12 AWG on a 30A breaker) I’ll say “it appears that the wire size is too small for a 30A breaker.”
When I first started I was pretty dumb and even wiggled some wires that looked loose (and found some too!). But I stopped that pretty quick. I don’t ever reach inside the panel. I just use a flashlight and camera.
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Hi John, Thanks so much. Very helpful!
You could go as high as a 12 AWG on a 60 AMP but I haven’t see that yet. (example by iwire)
You really want to stir things up don’t you? 
FWIW you’re correct.
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Sometimes I like to have fun. Yes. My comments outside the Ohio section are meant to let new inspectors know that the NEC isn’t black and white. You do a much better job of explaining this to the forum. I miss the forum but since we use the 2017 I don’t have much to contribute plus the changes would confuse me when inspecting. We had a fun fact in a CE I took. Building departments can’t inspect a service for a reconnect if no new work was performed. I’m still waiting on the official memo on that so I can post it at MH. I’m sure the will get around it with ‘home rule’ but here it is outside of the building code.
That’s fun for you?..Not much of a learning environment…
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Are you guys referring to 440.22 or something else? most seasoned and or knowledgeable inspectors are familiar with the exception.
yes we are.
But new inspectors are not.
Not sure what Mike was referring to but I was referring to T430.52 where an inverse time circuit breaker can be sized at up to 250% of a motor FLC. {#12 THHN=25 amps*250%=62.5 amps}
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See I told you that you did a better job of esplaining.
Well thanks for the compliment. When I read your first post saying that #12 conductors can be protected by a 60 amp circuit breaker I was trying to decipher which code section you were referring to. T430.52 would be one of them. Although this may be good for someone’s knowledge base I bet it will confuse more than it will help.
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It’s always good to know things, but it is not your job as an inspector to determine what conductor sizes go where. Of all the things that home inspectors say are wrong, but in fact are not wrong, conductor sizes are near the top of the list.
Unless you are prepared to trace the circuit and understand all the things that go into determining the correct conductor size, leave it alone. It is better to say “I don’t know” than to make yourself look like a fool.
I can’t even begin to estimate any more the number of times that a home inspector will see something like a #10AWG conductor on a 40A breaker and say that it was wrong and I get there to find it is feeding a fused disconnect with a 30A OCPD six feet away. I guarantee you that when stuff like that happens nobody is happy.
In almost 100% of the cases I get involved with, someone will ask me something along the lines of “Why would an inspector say something like that?”
In answer to your question about how everyone else learns, experience. When I was a young apprentice electrician, we were sometimes challenged by the journeymen to identify a conductor’s gauge and insulation type from a distance of about 20 feet. By the time we were journeymen, we could identify most at a glance (though not necessarily from 20’). We would have been laughed off the job if we carried a wire gauge.
Easy to blame the inspector. In all fairness, there are countless amount of unlabelled and or mislabelled panels/breakers. If we are not sure of something, we have to call it out regardless. Yes, I agree, the inspector should not say it’s wrong but it should be called out regardless unless the breaker is clearly labelled and a disconnect is clearly observable. What if the inspector does not call it out and the house has a fire? Then they call you and you throw the inspector under the bus for not calling out #10 on 40amp breaker.
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In a sense it is. It is meant to grab your attention so that you realized that electrical inspections are not black and white. Even time I use that example someone will tell me that I don’t know what I am talking about.
Simon, I want to be clear that I only blame the inspector when the inspector has crossed the line from being a home inspector to being a wannabe electrician or code enforcement inspector and they don’t know what they are talking about.
Anyone one who knows me knows that I am constantly preaching to home inspectors to stay in their own lane. Every job I get involved with after a home inspector has listed something as a problem with the electrical system, the inspector has been wrong. I can’t think of a single exception, ever. That’s a indicative of an industry wide problem.
When I train inspectors, I am constantly reinforcing that no home inspection SOP requires the inspector to evaluate the system’s adequacy of design, or any portion of the system. I preach to them that it is OK not to know things that are not part of the requirements as outlined in their SOP.
Unfortunately, we had guys like Lorne Steiner going around telling inspectors that they need to be experts in every field or they would be sued. Lorne got in front of a lot of inspectors over a period of several years when home inspection was in high gear growth mode. Lorne was never an inspector or a lawyer. His “Avoiding Litigation” seminar was little more than a scare tactic to sell his software. He did a lot of damage, then abruptly left the home inspection world.
An inspector will not be held to account by an insurance company for not going outside their scope. I’ve investigated many electrical fires where insurance companies could have justifiably gone after a home inspector or a small contractor, but they don’t. I’ve been in plenty of meetings with insurance company executives and their lawyers. Occasionally, some (usually young) hot-shot lawyer will want blood from anyone and everyone, but I’ve heard the higher-ups shut them down saying things like “No, we aren’t going to hurt anyone, we aren’t here to destroy someone’s life”. They are very reluctant to go after small businesses. They want to go after the big companies, such as the manufacturers and large volume contractors. I am usually the guy in the room defending home inspectors.
The manufacturer’s on the other hand will go after anyone who infringes upon their trademarks. Trademark infringement is a big problem with home inspectors. That, however, is a topic for another time.
When it comes to fires, the insurance companies rule. Investigations done by local officials are rudimentary, at best, unless the fire was a high profile newsworthy event. Even then, the insurance companies are the ones doing the in-depth investigations.
In my estimation, the propensity of inspectors pretending to be someone or something that they aren’t is perhaps the single biggest problem with our industry. Those are the ones who need to be reined in.
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This is ok because of tap rules under 240.21 correct? And as I understand it, the conductors must be in a raceway as well? Just trying to reinforce my learning, as it seems like the tap rules are some of the most misunderstood among inspectors.
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The tap rules can rarely be applied in a residential setting.
That’s the way I felt when I was just a lad. LOL
Can you elaborate on that statement Jim?
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