So Claude we do not follow it as per building code and what it says for crawl space venting but as the condition we see it as? then make recommendations as per what code says? so many different opinions on this one and its run into many times these issues specially on older homes.
Rudolf
So we should not mention anything about code standards as to the crawl space inspections you say?
**Code??? **I was always taught not to mention this word anywhere any time.
Yep, Both,
I am one of those who get by on about 5 Hours of sleep a night been this way all my life .
I agree, there’s a difference between quoting code, and indicating the impact of reporting the significance of building conditions to the client such as the question originally posed in this thread.
I am not implying or suggesting quoting code, however, what standard will really acount in court? Codes are legally accepted building standards that should be used as a “tool” to determine the minimum acceptable construction standard.
I am simply implying what is baseline in determining a deficiency, and what standard should the inspector apply to substantiate or at least support their opinion.
Please Claude you keep talking about going to court .
Can you give us a few examples .
I would like the facts .
This scareing people all the time with out facts does little good. Thanks … Roy
guys!! this is my basement…so feel free to give advices!..i am not going to sue myself!! lol
first and foremost resolve the moisture issue(s)
then whatever approach you take complete it 100% halfast won’t get it when it comes to crawlspaces
you’ll have to adjust this for your climate but it is also a good reference
http://www.raisedfloorlivingpro.com/crawlspace.shtml
hooray for all those to the north of me…good game!
That to me is not acceptable. Client should be made aware of potential problems and of their consequences if not repaired along with recommendations.
Stop the ventilation . If you still have Moisture Put in a dehumidifier with a drain hose to Drain the water away so you do not need to empty the tank. . Cement floor best . If not then cover with Plastic and sand around the outside to help seal it to the wall . Insulate the wall where possible Seal and insulate at Joices over header then seal or use spray foam.
If you do insulate the under floor do not use plastic as the insulation needs to breath.
Wall insulation Spray foam best ,Roxal next .
If spray foam remember it needs a fire retardant covering , Can also be sprayed over foam.
Your Electric heater should now be on a lot less .
Remember warm floor keeps Moms feet warm and that makes Mom happy . If she is happy every body is happy
I agree and do my best to help my clients also.
As what was discussed earlier the key is if the crawlspace is “heated” or "unheated.
An unheated crawlspace is like an attic. You need to ventilate in order to ensure no moisture accumulation. Not ventilating an unheated crawlspace is asking for trouble just the same as not ventilating an attic. In this case the floor is insulated and it is imperative that they have an air barrier under the floor to prevent drafts. This can be done using a typar/tyvek material.
In the case of a heated crawlspace you do not ventilate the space since it is heated. This detail requires you to insulate the walls of the crawlspace. There is no need to insulate the floor.
[FONT=Times New Roman][size=3]Thanks Gerald can you send me to places to confirm your statements . I see much information that says just the opposite .
I also see where in the near future we could be building homes with unventilated attics .
This I believe is done now in some places in the world
Do a Google search on Unventilated attics
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Patrick:
Remove any debris from under the vp first. Seal all vp overlaps everywhere.
The black butyl caulking works best in most types of conditions.
Consider putting styro sm type on the walls only at least 2 feet
attached/nailed with wide plastic washers below the frost line.
Introduce conditioned air into the crawl space and ensure that
you have at least 3 air exchanges per hour.
There should be no musty/dank air in the crawl
space if these steps are taken.
We have a lot of rain here on the wild pacific coast.
I did this with my 1952 home.
“Breathe the fresh air my man!”
T.Neyedli CHI
www.alphahomeinspections.ca
Sure Roy. I facilitate and teach several building code courses and that is how it is explained. As posted earlier the code requires all unheated crawlspaces to be ventilated. Div B, 9.18 in the National (Canadian) and Ontario Building Codes goes through all the requirements. These articles have not changed since the codes first inception in 1975. So all homes or additions built after that time should follow this criteria.
There may be information out there that contradicts our building code. However, how can we recommend something that is not allowed by law? (ie. not ventilating an unheated crawlspace?)
For your info there is the excerpt on crawlspaces in the Ontario Building Code.
Section 9.18. Crawl Spaces
9.18.1. General
9.18.1.1. Application
**(1) **In this Section, a crawl space refers to an enclosed space between the underside of a floor assembly and the ground cover directly below, with a clearance less than 1 800 mm in height.
9.18.1.2. Foundations
**(1) **Foundations enclosing crawl spaces shall conform to Section 9.15.
9.18.1.3. Heated and Unheated Crawl Spaces
**(1) **Crawl spaces shall be considered to be heated where the space,
(a) is used as a hot air plenum,
(b) contains heating ducts or heating pipes that are not sealed and insulated to minimize heat loss to the space, or
(c) is not separated from heated space in accordance with Section 9.25.
**(2) **Heating of heated crawl spaces shall conform to Section 9.33.
**(3) **Insulation, an air barrier system and a vapour barrier shall be installed in the walls of heated crawl spaces in accordance with Section 9.25.
9.18.2. Access
9.18.2.1. Access Openings
**(1) **An access opening of not less than 500 mm by 700 mm shall be provided to each crawl space where the crawl space serves a single dwelling unit, and not less than 550 mm by 900 mm for other crawl spaces.
**(2) **Access openings shall be fitted with a door or hatch, except when the crawl space is heated and the access opening into the crawl space is from the adjacent heated space.
9.18.3. Ventilation
9.18.3.1. Ventilation of Unheated Crawl Spaces
**(1) **Unheated crawl spaces shall be ventilated by natural or mechanical means.
**(2) **Where an unheated crawl space is ventilated by natural means, ventilation shall be provided to the outside air by not less than 0.1 m² of unobstructed vent area for every 50 m² of floor area.
**(3) **Vents shall be,
(a) uniformly distributed on opposite sides of the building, and
(b) designed to prevent the entry of snow, rain and insects.
9.18.3.2. Ventilation of Heated Crawl Spaces
**(1) **Heated crawl spaces shall be ventilated in accordance with Section 9.32.
9.18.4. Clearance
9.18.4.1. Access Way to Services
**(1) **Where equipment requiring service such as plumbing cleanouts, traps and burners is located in crawl spaces, an access way with a height and width of not less than 600 mm shall be provided from the access door to the equipment and for a distance of 900 mm on the side or sides of the equipment to be serviced.
9.18.5. Drainage
9.18.5.1. Drainage
**(1) **Except where it can be shown to be unnecessary, the ingress of water into a crawl space shall be controlled by grading or drainage.
**(2) **Drainage of foundation walls shall conform to Article 9.14.2.1.
**(3) **Drainage of the ground cover or floor-on-ground in the crawl space shall conform to Subsection 9.16.3.
**(4) **Drains shall conform to Section 9.14.
9.18.6. Ground Cover
9.18.6.1. Ground Cover in Unheated Crawl Spaces
**(1) **Where a crawl space is unheated, a ground cover shall be provided consisting of not less than,
(a) 50 mm of asphalt paving material,
(b) 100 mm of 15 MPa Portland cement concrete,
(c) Type S roll roofing, or
(d) 0.10 mm polyethylene.
**(2) **Joints in sheet-type ground cover required in Sentence (1) shall be lapped not less than 100 mm and weighted down.
9.18.6.2. Ground Cover in Heated Crawl Spaces
**(1) **Where a crawl space is heated, a ground cover consisting of not less than 0.15 mm polyethylene sheet conforming to CAN/CGSB-51.34-M, “Vapour Barrier, Polyethylene Sheet, for Use in Building Construction”, shall be provided.
**(2) **The ground cover required in Sentence (1) shall,
(a) have its joints lapped not less than 300 mm, and sealed and weighted down, or
(b) be covered with a concrete skim coat not less than 50 mm thick.
**(3) **The perimeter of the ground cover required in Sentence (1) shall be sealed to the foundation wall.
9.18.7. Fire Protection
9.18.7.1. Crawl Spaces as Warm Air Plenums
**(1) **Only crawl spaces under 1-storey portions of dwelling units shall be used as warm-air plenums.
**(2) **Enclosing material in crawl spaces described in Sentence (1) including insulation shall have a surface flame-spread rating not greater than 150.
**(3) **Combustible ground cover used as enclosing material in Sentence (2) shall be covered with noncombustible material.
WOW…:shock::shock:.
where can i get the Quebec building code book…(i mean …free download…PDF…) can seem to find it on the net…(well …sure it’s there, but not free…)
Roy - I step aside to your claimed expertise. All the best…my apologies to those for expressing my ignorance on this subject trying to rationalize what the current and past recognized building standard in Ontario specifies.
A building code trainer/facilitator in Ontario
[quote=“gmoore7, post:31, topic:47262”]
As what was discussed earlier the key is if the crawlspace is “heated” or "unheated.
An unheated crawlspace is like an attic. You need to ventilate in order to ensure no moisture accumulation. Not ventilating an unheated crawlspace is asking for trouble just the same as not ventilating an attic. In this case the floor is insulated and it is imperative that they have an air barrier under the floor to prevent drafts. This can be done using a typar/tyvek material.
[quote]
Agree Gerald,
But unheated crawlspace means cold floors above even if insulated and someone may not be happy…
Sorry to see you run away Much information traded and knowledge is important . As a code trainer I would think you should be helping all . Thanks Claude buy this is not the first time you leave.
Your Choice of course we all know the Code changes as more knowledge comes along
Good by again Claude .
Is some thing wrong with the Building code ???
See below
http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-009-new-light-in-crawlspaces
sight
New Light In Crawlspaces
By Joseph Lstiburek
Building Science Insight 009: last updated 2009/05/22
http://www.buildingscience.com/icon_download.jpg Crawlspaces stink, they rot, and are just plain icky. Photograph 1](http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-009-new-light-in-crawlspaces#Photo_01) shows the modern crawlspace, which is a forest of water droplets on the underside of fiberglass batt insulation. The exposed wood floor joists are rotting. The house over this crawlspace is not shabby (Photograph 2](http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-009-new-light-in-crawlspaces#Photo_02)). Did I mention that this is a vented crawlspace (Photograph 3](http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-009-new-light-in-crawlspaces#Photo_03))? Oh, by the way, there is a continuous plastic sheet ground cover and excellent drainage. Everything in this crawlspace was done “right.” It has code specified ventilation, a continuous impermeable ground cover, excellent drainage and still we have a mess. What caused this mess? The floor insulation. No way. Yup.