Deteriorated armaflex at outdoor AC condensing unit

I’ve heard conflicting opinions on this from other inspectors and HVAC techs, so I decided to post it here.

The insulation prevents condensation on interior surfaces, but why would you need to control condensation outside?

Others say the insulation improves efficiency. But, the refrigerant in the suction line has already done its job, removed heat at the evaporator. Absorbing a little more heat from the outside isn’t going to change anything.

What do you say? Do you call out missing or deteriorated insulation on the suction line at the exterior and why?

Being a lowly home inspector, I couldn’t remember why I learned to call it out (Aside from it not being as installed.) but I did call it out.

So, I looked the reason up again and I remembered (Granted not all systems operate as below, but…):

On a heat pump the insulation also serves to prevent an unwitting victim from receiving a burn as well as protects and wires that happen to be touching the line from melting.

from:

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Condo rooftop condenser units.
I keep it general & state AC lines missing protective foam.

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Most manufacturer’s installation instructions call for insulation to be installed on the suction line in order to prevent condensation forming on the line at the condenser. Condensate is slightly acidic and can damage the unit or associated equipment.

Condensate produced by fuel combustion is slightly acidic.
Condensation produced on a cold refrigerant line is considered pH neutral.

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Condensate formed on a refrigerant line can range from 6 to 8 on the PH scale. If you live in or near the ohio valley ( Where there are around 75 coal fired power plants producing acid rain) its usually slightly acidic.

Acid Rain is a myth. Just ask any Atheist or Flat Earther!!

Funny, but NOX isn’t.

Had I known the subject has already been covered, I wouldn’t have created a new thread. I used to call it out because of ill-advised training from a previous employer, but I no longer do.

So what are we talking about here?
Are you saying condensation of water vapor is Fractional Distillation?

So we need to protect copper from acid rain?

You know that copper kills organic material like mold (like on a roof)? Is the PH from the condensation coming from the air or the copper pipe?

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Florida Building Codes require it. Your area may vary.

I’d like to read that code if you have a reference.

It should always be done, but not for the reasons we are talking about here. I don’t do anything but IR at this point, but I would like to keep up with palaces I work. I do look for water still. I would never call out the code unless I was investigating code, but nice to know and keep up.

Well, I do not know about everyone else. I would like to hear the reason.

Well as I said, unless you’re running bare pipe across 50’ of black EPDM roof, efficiency is not a significant issue. That is about this thread.

The condensation from the bare pipe can flow back into the building.

Water is never a good thing around a building. Where I am, I have seen 6" of standing water around the HVAC from condensation onto clay based soils.

I have in the past, opened up the condenser and insulated the suction line up to the compressor, as well as insulating the compressor (Ingersoll Rand / Trane, compressors’ come with this insulation) because this was the bast practice. Stop condensation before building a moat around your house. :innocent:

As hopefully Dave Fetty will get me the Fla Code, there are locations where the heat and humidity create significant water issues, and the local AHJ takes action. It does not mean it applies to Ak or Az…

I appreciate guys like you and Dave Fetty who take advantage of understanding stuff, even when it has no place in a home inspection. Understanding why things are, only make you guys better inspectors. You don’t go along with the crowd claiming efficiency loss, when you don’t have a single tool in your bag to show inefficiency is happening because someone’s dog chewed up the Armorflex.

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Go to M1411.6

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Reference Florida Building Code Energy Conservation R403.4 Mechanical system piping insulation (Mandatory).
Mechanical system piping capable of carrying fluids above 105°F (41°C) or below 55°F (13°C) shall be insulated to a minimum of R-3.
R403.4.1Protection of piping insulation.
Piping insulation exposed to weather shall be protected from damage, including that caused by sunlight, moisture, equipment maintenance and wind, and shall provide shielding from solar radiation that can cause degradation of the material. Adhesive tape shall not be permitted.

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There is one for commercial as well, the insulation should be protected too.
[[INSULATION NOT PROTECTED FBCE 503.2.7.1.2]]The insulation was not protected Reference FBCE 503.2.7.1.2
Insulation shall be protected from damage, including that due to sunlight, moisture, equipment maintenance, and wind, but not limited to the following:

  1. Insulation exposed to weather shall be suitable for outdoor service, e.g., protected by aluminum, sheet metal, painted canvas, or plastic cover. Cellular foam insulation shall be protected as above or painted with a coating that is water retardant and provides shielding from solar radiation that can cause degradation of the material.
  2. Insulation covering cooling ducts located outside the conditioned space shall include a vapor retardant located outside the insulation (unless the insulation is inherently vapor retardant), all penetrations and joints of which shall be sealed.
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IT is in several different areas of the Code. Florida Code is modeled from the IRC (typically 3 or more years behind the IRC, not sure what Codes govern TN or other areas you may cover. I went a couple years with the mindset about “we are not Code inspectors”, But all of the Builders back then in this area, their goto excuse for anything was "it passed (or ‘past code’ as seen in one builder rep response :roll_eyes:) Code. That’s when I started getting into the Codes. Bottom line the Code is the reference material, if something is not installed correctly I like to provide references. BTW the Code (in FL) also requires that systems and equipment be installed per the Code and per the manufacturer’s installation instructions; and in the event that one is stricter than the other the stricter applies.

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I went a couple years with the mindset about “we are not Code inspectors”,

When I did home inspections, I carried my code books everywhere I went, it is what builders understand. Building code is subject to interpretation, as well as if they are adopted or modified for a particular area.

However, when we put on our home inspector hats, we have got to comply with our rules and regulations. So when does building code fall under home inspection regulations? It is when a significant issue (as specified in the home inspection rules) does not function or operate as intended, plus anything else we want to throw in there, if we’re qualified to do so.

When something is done against the wishes of the AHJ concerning new construction, that is the job of the code inspector. It has yet to fail or cause a significant issue because it is brand-new. Inspectors are not required to predict future failures, or determine why the failure occurred.

R403.4Mechanical system piping insulation (Mandatory).

Mechanical system piping capable of carrying fluids above 105°F (41°C) or below 55°F (13°C) shall be insulated to a minimum of R-3.
R403.4.1Protection of piping insulation.

Interpretation of the code: Section R 403 is a section of the “Energy Conservation” code. The range above 10 5°F and below 55°F is reference to when heat transfer is accelerated. For every degree Fahrenheit above or below these temperatures increases the multiplier in the heat transfer equation. 10°F above or below design temperature is a heat transfer multiplier of 10X.

The 24 inches between the house foundation and the condensing unit may fall under your code inspector’s interpretation, but it is not a concern for the energy conservation reasons this became a code.

Piping: can be interpreted to include air ducts, which it appears to be the perspective of R 403. It must be insulated, and the insulation must not be subject to damage. A fluid can be a liquid or a gas (air).

Go to M1411.6

M stands for mechanical.

M1411.6 Insulation of refrigerant piping.
Piping and fittings for refrigerant vapor (suction) lines shall be insulated with insulation having a thermal resistivity of not less than R-3 and having external surface permeance not exceeding 0.05 perm [2.87 ng/(s · m2 · Pa)] when tested in accordance with ASTM E96.

They want a minimum of R-3, why?
Because insulation will go below dew point and cause condensation, which is what they’re trying to avoid.
Also, the external surface permeance requirement is to prevent air/containing water vapor from entering through the insulation barrier.

If you see that the 24 inches between the house and the condensing unit is causing an issue, then you are required under home inspection rules to address it.

Your mechanical and conservation codes are just like the ones here, and most places where I work in the field. You guys can interpret this the way you want, and deal with it as it goes down the path. I seem to get more stuff done when I recommend a preventative maintenance issue rather than a home inspection issue. I never go up against the AHJ, but do have conversation with them for clarification. We don’t like people calling us out, I’m sure they don’t like it either.

The insulation prevents condensation on interior surfaces, but why would you need to control condensation outside?

This thread is about water production against the building and energy efficiency questions. 24 inches of armor flex is not going to do anything significant. If there are large sections in the attic, this will be/is a moisture issue specifically being addressed by the building code.

Thanks for the links Dave.

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