Originally Posted By: psmothers This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
It was plumbed into a dry vent to the right of the picture. My picture of the connection did not come out. The dry vent was cast iron. What is the proper connection between a piece of cast iron pipe and the flex tubing
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Originally Posted By: jrupert This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
there is no proper connection to cast iron. It will depend on code if code exists, here in Ohio it must drain to a floor drain but not to a sump pump and never to a waste drain of any kind
No air break is required by code on a condensate drain. The application pictured does not need a trap since the coil is on the “down side” of the blower where positive pressure is present, a trap is only required on a pull through coil where a negative air pressure is present
Most inspectors will allow a hose but I know of one city here that will not allow anything but PVC
Originally Posted By: dandersen This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
If the unit is located in an unconditioned space, i.e. garage or basement, a trap is required even if it’s a positive system. A condensate line without a trap is the same as having a massive air leak. Air being discharged to the unconditioned space will cause unconditioned air to be drawn in and around windows and doors, and is an efficiency concern.
This negative pressure also causes radon gas issues and is one of the primary causes for elevated radon gas measurements within a structure around here. 98% of all at elevated radon measurements (extremely high measurements) are the results of improperly installed mechanical equipment.
Around here, condensate drains needs the space between it and the cast-iron dry drain.
Originally Posted By: jrupert This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Traps will create standing water in the drain pan, and in the trap it ?self, during winter months in cold climates this can cause serious damage to the cooling system if that water freezes and expands, so a trap would not be advised in any unconditioned installation
Here in Ohio all new construction for the past 20 years requires a 6 inch round duct from the return to the out side to pressurize the home thus forcing the house air to ?reverse infiltrate? or purposely leak to the out doors to stop infiltration, and to provide fresh air that tighter construction has eliminated
Originally Posted By: dandersen This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
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IHave been doing HVAC here for 30 years here in Ohio and Arizona I have never had a code requirement for a trap for the reason of stopping ?air leakage ? to the out side, to reduce infiltration. Would like to see some written code for your area if this is the case
First of all, we do not enforce code. We do not inspect by the code and for the code.
This is a condition (outside of the mechanical code) that we often see in the home inspection business when we evaluate indoor air quality and test for radon gas. Just because it's not a code does not mean we cannot recommend improved measures on the construction of any house that creates a hazardous condition in other areas. If your code says it has to be copper or PVC then make it so Joe. It could say we must have an air break between the drains, then make one.
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Many times installation code can be vague from city to city except when a safety issue is at hand but almost always refers to the manufacture guidelines for guidance when no written code is in place and no manufacture that I am aware of requires a trap for the purpose of stopping air loss from the house.
Have you ever seen that little sticker on the outside of a packaged Carrier HVAC unit that says "do not trap condensate drain" because there is a trap installed on the inside of the unit? It sounds like they're assuming you're going to put a trap on. Where did that assumption come from?
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The only reason for a trap is for the proper drainage of air conditioner condensate and as home inspector no other reason should called out by the inspector
That's one of the reasons. Nobody tells me anywhere what I cannot call out. If I see something, is creating a situation which is undesirable, I call it out. Again, I'm not enforcing anyone and no one is enforcing me. My report is strictly my opinion.
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Traps will create standing water in the drain pan, and in the trap it ?self, during winter months in cold climates this can cause serious damage to the cooling system if that water freezes and expands, so a trap would not be advised in any unconditioned installation
I don't know what part of Ohio and Arizona your from, but it sure as hell doesn't get that cold where I'm from (Wasilla, Alaska)! The condensate pan and evaporator coil is located on the down side of the gas furnace heat exchanger. If it's a heat pump , the indoor coil itself becomes hot and evaporates the water. If it gets cold outside, my heat comes on, doesn't yours? I have never seen a frozen evaporator and/or condensate trap in my past experiences. In TN we have packaged units that are totally outdoors. The only frozen condensate I have come across is from high efficiency gas furnaces that use PVC side vents and they are installed improperly. As posted "copper or PVC required", the use of copper condensate lines on the exterior will promote freezing, but I have only seen copper lines on the interior conditioned space of the house.
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Here in Ohio all new construction for the past 20 years requires a 6 inch round duct from the return to the out side to pressurize the home thus forcing the house air to ?reverse infiltrate? or purposely leak to the out doors to stop infiltration, and to provide fresh air that tighter construction has eliminated
The purpose for a fresh air intake is for indoor air quality. If I were inspecting in Ohio, every single house that has one of these would get a recommendation that a heat recovery ventilator be installed. This 6" pipe may be the code today , however the federal government will be right behind them preventing this as it is an efficiency loss and will be violating federal law soon, if not already. Pressurizing a house has as much adverse effect as placing house in a negative pressure. Neither is desirable when it comes to efficiency. Exfiltration is as much of a loss as infiltration and there's no reason to jump from one to the other. We pressurize buildings as a form of radon mitigation, primarily in schools and public buildings which have more sophisticated HVAC equipment. This positive pressure is controlled and minimal. Placing a six-inch air duct to the outside is totally uncontrolled and unnecessary. However, if it's the building code, that's something you're going to have to live with or change. Again, I don't enforce the building code nor do I support them when there is no cause. Building codes are for safety (in many cases) and I feel if you look into this a little more you will find that safety is involved concerning the quality of indoor air.
Originally Posted By: jrupert This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Geeez fella lighten up a bit, now I remember why I stopped posting on this board, some people can not take being contradicted, no as a inspector you can recommend any thing you want do you feel better now, And if your inspection covers energy efficiency more power to you
Now go pet a bear or what ever you to up in Alaska to chill out a bit, from what I have read all your posts seem to be a little rover the top
p.s. I would take the time to point out the flaws in your answers but I would just have to read your reply and thats just toooooo much effort
Originally Posted By: dandersen This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I’m sure it’s too much effort to get it right the first time!
Home inspectors have enough crap to deal with. We do not need more superficial nonsense injected into this business.
Obviously if you can't take the time, your input isn't worth supporting.
There's a lot of new people in here that listen to what people say. I change my point of view all the time, based on what the majority of the home inspectors have found to be factual in the real world. Freezing up of the evaporator coil? Get a life! It might freeze, but not because it is a trap on the condensate line! You come in here with 30 years of experience! With this baloney?
There is not a lot of traffic on the HVAC bulletin board. That's probably a good thing. Some people, possibly like yourself come in here feeling that they know something about HVAC, without a clue. Any type of discussion is welcome on these bulletin boards, but you may as well expect a conflict in opinion when you throw stuff like this out.
To start with, working on HVAC equipment requires EPA certification. Home inspectors do not have the certification in most cases. Anything beyond a minimal run it and see if it works inspection is about all that anyone can expect. There is a lot of information that can be provided and there's a lot of testing that can be done without crossing the EPA guidelines. We don't have a lot of room for nonsense. You're right up there with the 20? temperature differential between return supply air dry bulb temperatures. This is a prime example of BS that's passed down from generation to generation without any substantial factual support of scientific basis.
I see that you have a grand total of 15 posts to your name.. I normally do not judge anyone for their longevity in nachi, however your experience shows. There are people on this BB that probably have more education and experience than I do in the HVAC business, however, there is no room for BS here unless you want to get called out.
Originally Posted By: jrupert This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
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Some people, possibly like yourself come in here feeling that they know something about HVAC, without a clue]
Longevity ion the nachi board or number of post makes an expert not.
I do have however 30 years in the HVAC field, State licensed in Ohio Lic # 22883, Columbus city license #H0690, EPA certified, plus I own a continuing education company that provides state mandated training to trade license holders my training agency is Sate of Ohio #354 licensed for HVAC, HVAC/R, plumbing, Electrical, Hydronic and if that is not enough I own a real HVAC company doing business every day, so I guess I have a clue as to what?s going on in the HVAC
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To start with, working on HVAC equipment requires EPA certification
Incorrect, EPA certification is only required to handle refrigerant .The ability to work on a A/C system stems from city, state or county licensing some require nothing other requi9re apprentice status but holding the EPA certificate is separate for refrigerant handling.
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You're right up there with the 20? temperature differential between return supply air dry bulb temperatures. This is a prime example of BS that's passed down from generation to generation without any substantial factual support of scientific basis.
???
On a properly operating air conditioner or heat pump a difference of 18-20 degrees can be measured at the evaporator coil, this is published manufacture data, BUT IT NEVER MEANS THAT THE SYSTEM IS PROPERLY CHARGED ALL BY IT SELF. And it does not apply to all conditions it?s only one of many reference tests.
Things to consider
1). The split is measured at the coil, not at a random supply and return grill, because the temperature loss through the supply ducting and temperature gain in the return air ducting will give a false reading.
2). Residential air conditioners are designed to operate below 90 degress out door with above 70 degree indoor temp, when these to conditions are not present the system in effect is not operating at peak efficiency but a 20 degree split may still be measured while low on refrigerant.
3). Air conditioners are designed to operate on 400- 450 cfm air flow on both the supply and return air ducting, if the air flow is wrong on either supply or return or both (low air flow) a 20 degree or greater split may be measured, but the system will fail on a hot day.
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Freezing up of the evaporator coil? Get a life! It might freeze, but not because it is a trap on the condensate line! You come in here with 30 years of experience! With this baloney?
If I read my post correctly I stated Traps will create standing water in the drain pan, and in the trap it ?self, during winter months in cold climates this can cause serious damage to the cooling system if that water freezes and expands, so a trap would not be advised in any unconditioned space
In an unconditioned space, a trap filled with water will freeze and break, the result will be water damage in the next cooling season, if the unit happens to be in the attic the water damage can be very costly to the home owner.
Standing water in a plastic drain pan can freeze and damage the pan, betting on that the water may evaporate is a gamble.
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Home inspectors do not have the certification in most cases. Anything beyond a minimal run it and see if it works inspection is about all that anyone can expect
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Home inspectors have enough crap to deal with. We do not need more superficial nonsense injected into this business.
It just this lack of skills that have opened the door to the skilled home inspector that has certifications in one or more area, while the generalist attitude and position is common to address the lack of certification, today?s home buyer what?s more then a run it and see if it works inspection
I teach a 10 hr class monthly all over the great sate of Ohio to the HVAC /Plumbing/Electrical field on marketing and opportunities that exist for them in the home inspection area, I direct them to several accreted Home inspection schools for additioanl education and accreditation
The reason I started this course and the reason I got into the inspection business years ago is because a significant revenue source of my HVAC Company is the direct result from all the incorrect information from home inspectors. It like free money.
Then we have jerks like you who proclaim them self?s as the expert and last word on this message board providing vague incorrect information, buyers and sellers reading your crap, just bring down the inspection business another notch
Originally Posted By: dandersen This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
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Longevity ion the nachi board or number of post makes an expert not.
That's what I said.
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I normally do not judge anyone for their longevity in nachi, however your experience shows.
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Incorrect, EPA certification is only required to handle refrigerant .
Incorrect, EPA certification is required to do any work that may potentially release ozone depleting refrigerants into the air. Removing a Schrader valve cap is a "potential".
I like what you wrote about the Delta T!
We need to post that somewhere else too!
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betting on that the water may evaporate is a gamble.
Water evaporates from the humidifier pretty fast in heating mode! I think I would take bets on the water evaporating in time. In most conditions the P trap or running trap is installed against air conditioning coil immediately above or next to the furnace. I will admit that there may be cases of damage if you put the trap outdoors where freeze damage could occur to it. However, we have gas packs and packaged heat pump's all over the place here (99% have traps installed) and I have yet to have to replace a broken trap from anything other than lawn mower damage! And yes, it does get cold enough here to go ice skating.
Plastic drain pan damage occurs from freezing, but that is because the evaporator coil froze due to undercharged refrigerant, lack of air flow, dirt etc.
The refrigeration system caused the pan to freeze/break, not the outdoor air temperature.
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The reason I started this course and the reason I got into the inspection business years ago is because a significant revenue source of my HVAC Company is the direct result from all the incorrect information from home inspectors. It like free money.
That is exactly my point!
We don't need any more misinformation floating around. You may teach courses, so did I, that doesn't mean the information delivered at this BB is correct. It may be that you wrote it wrong and it was construed incorrectly. When I read it I felt that issues stated were not correct and was misinformation. I hope you're not posting misinformation to make more free money!
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Then we have jerks like you who proclaim them self?s as the expert and last word on this message board providing vague incorrect information, buyers and sellers reading your crap, just bring down the inspection business another notch
That's exactly the same point I was making when I responded to your vague incorrect post. I'm not personally attacking you, I'm debating the information that was posted. Debate is good remember? If you read back in the post you will see that you responded to my post, it was not I that responded to yours. I am not proclaiming to be an expert on the subject as you state.
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There are people on this BB that probably have more education and experience than I do in the HVAC business, however...
Thank you for your reply. However in many areas it seems that you reiterated a lot of what I said.
Originally Posted By: dspencer This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
jrupert wrote:
Here in Ohio all new construction for the past 20 years requires a 6 inch round duct from the return to the out side to pressurize the home thus forcing the house air to ?reverse infiltrate? or purposely leak to the out doors to stop infiltration, and to provide fresh air that tighter construction has eliminated
I have been inspecting New Construction and have NEVER seen a 6" duct for a fresh air intake on any inspection from Worthington, Columbus, Arlington,Bexley to Delaware` required by code. (Central Ohio)
What is the code refernece #; I have a Columbus Ohio code book and see it no where.
