Electrical panel height

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1

Originally Posted By: kmcmahon
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http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/more/Delisle026.jpg ]

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2

Originally Posted By: rpalac
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Yes,


NEC states you must have 30" side to side of aggregate clearance.

Front is 36" from 8' to A.F.F. (after finish floor) The bed inhibits this access.

The code also state that a panel can not exceed a height of not more that 6' to the center of the breaker handle or a minimum height of 18" to the center of a breaker handle.

(I don't have my book with me....we need some one to validate these numbers.)

The panel it self can extend from the floor to the ceiling or where ever.

In commercial installations I have installed MDP's (main Distribution Panels rated at 800 amp that had covers that were 8" by 4' and weighed in excess of a hundred pounds. These were factory from G.E. They clipped on at the floor and were designed for that type of installation. They also happen to be all of the panel design in the Pa. General Electric plant in Philadelphia.

Bob p.

3

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Robert is at a disadvantage (without his books) hence his incorrect numbers.


First, lets start here.

ARTICLE 240 Overcurrent Protection
-240.24 Location in or on Premises.
- - (A) Accessibility. Overcurrent devices shall be readily accessible unless one of the following applies: (itemizations not included)
- - (B) Occupancy. Each occupant shall have ready access to all overcurrent devices protecting the conductors supplying that occupancy. (exceptions do not apply here, so they are not included)
- - - [Jerry's note: Being in a bedroom does not make them accessible to all occupants. Sometimes this gets fuzzy with the AHJ, but have them think about it a while and they should realize that a locked bedroom door is intended to exclude everyone except the occupants of the bedroom.]
- - (C) Not Exposed to Physical Damage. Overcurrent devices shall be located where they will not be exposed to physical damage.
FPN: See 110.11, Deteriorating Agents.
- - (D) Not in Vicinity of Easily Ignitible Material. Overcurrent devices shall not be located in the vicinity of easily ignitible material, such as in clothes closets.
- - - [Jerry's note: This does not say "cannot be located in clothes closets", it says "such as" clothes closets, and that bedroom sure does fit that inclusion.]
- - (E) Not Located in Bathrooms. In dwelling units and guest rooms of hotels and motels, overcurrent devices, other than supplementary overcurrent protection, shall not be located in bathrooms as defined in Article 100.

ARTICLE 240(B) and (D) apply to that photo.

Now, for clearances (you already said you knew - good).
The working space must be 30" wide (which does not mean 30" on each side or even centered on the panel) by 36" in front of the panel. And it must be from the floor to the height of the equipment (at its top).

110.26 Spaces About Electrical Equipment.
- (A) Working Space.
- - 3) Height of Working Space. The work space shall be clear and extend from the grade, floor, or platform to the height required by 110.26(E). Within the height requirements of this section, other equipment that is associated with the electrical installation and is located above or below the electrical equipment shall be permitted to extend not more than 150 mm (6 in.) beyond the front of the electrical equipment.
- [Jerry's note: it said to go to (E), so here it is.] (E) Headroom. The minimum headroom of working spaces about service equipment, switchboards, panelboards, or motor control centers shall be 2.0 m (6? ft). Where the electrical equipment exceeds 2.0 m (6? ft) in height, the minimum headroom shall not be less than the height of the equipment.
Exception: In existing dwelling units, service equipment or panelboards that do not exceed 200 amperes shall be permitted in spaces where the headroom is less than 2.0 m (6? ft)
- - - [Jerry's note: 6' 6" does not apply to dwelling units if under 200 amp, and that looks under 200 amp. In this case, you would use "the minimum headroom shall not be less than the height of the equipment"]
- (B) Clear Spaces. Working space required by this section shall not be used for storage. When normally enclosed live parts are exposed for inspection or servicing, the working space, if in a passageway or general open space, shall be suitably guarded.
[Jerry's note: Clear space? Means no bed in that required working space. But, you can move the bed, right? Of course, it's easy. But no one is going to say that the bed can be in the working space, are they? Then when excuse a car parked in the garage and parked in the working space? Just raising the question again, if the car is not a problem the bed is not a problem. I think they are both problems.]

Enough for now. Get too long and I lose track of where I'm going and you lose track of where I've been.

--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

4

Originally Posted By: rpalac
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Jerry, Thank you for the detailed follow up.


There is a section regarding pannels and disconnects the speak of actual higth limitations.

It is measured from floor to center of handle. Can you put your diligent finger on that specific area. i think it is the chapter 2 or 3, 200 to 300 area.

Thanks Bob P.
MY BRAIN HURTS........

5

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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Article 100 definition


Accessible, Readily (Readily Accessible). Capable of being reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite to climb over or remove obstacles or to resort to portable ladders, and so forth.



Handbook note;
The definition of readily accessible does not preclude the use of a locked door for service equipment or rooms containing service equipment, provided those for whom ready access is necessary have a key (or lock combination) available. For example, 230.70(A)(1) and 230.205(A) require service-disconnecting means to be readily accessible. Section 225.32 requires that feeder disconnecting means for separate buildings be readily accessible. A commonly used, permitted practice is to locate the disconnecting means in the electrical equipment room of an office building or large apartment building and to keep the door to that room locked to prevent access by unauthorized persons. Section 240.24(A) requires that overcurrent devices be so located as to be readily accessible.


Usually the only time you will see movable "obstructions" being sited is in commercial installations and it is usually done by the fire marshal.

There is no code reason to stop someone from having a panel in a bedroom.

6

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Greg Fretwell wrote:
There is no code reason to stop someone from having a panel in a bedroom.


Re-read my post above. While the code does not say 'NOT in bedrooms stupid', like it does about bathrooms, it does say:

- - (D) Not in Vicinity of Easily Ignitible Material. Overcurrent devices shall not be located in the vicinity of easily ignitible material, such as in clothes closets.
- - - [Jerry's note: This does not say "cannot be located in clothes closets", it says "such as" clothes closets, and that bedroom sure does fit that inclusion.]

It is not a stretch at all to conclude that bedrooms are full of "Easily Ignitible Material". Remember, the code does NOT say:

(D) Not in Vicinity of Easily Ignitible Material. Overcurrent devices shall not be located in the vicinity of easily ignitible material in clothes closets.

It DOES say:

(D) Not in Vicinity of Easily Ignitible Material. Overcurrent devices shall not be located in the vicinity of easily ignitible material, such as in clothes closets.

--
Jerry Peck
South Florida
7

Originally Posted By: kmcmahon
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I knew that…I just put a note that it may not be ideal and a safety concern as it is utilized by small children.


Thanks for the replies.

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8

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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If you think a bedroom is the tinder box you haven’t looked around many garages icon_wink.gif

9

Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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I agree with Greg entirely, panels are allowed in bedrooms. icon_smile.gif


Here is the NEC Handbook commentary after 240.24(D)

NOTE: handbook commentary is not code only the opinions of the authors, that said these authors have more of an inside track then any of us.

Quote:
Examples of locations where combustible materials may be stored are linen closets, paper storage closets, and clothes closets.


In my opinion they would have mentioned bedrooms if the code section was intended to prohibit panels in Bedrooms.

Many places panels are normally installed could be used for storage of combustible materials.

--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum
10

Originally Posted By: rpalac
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Yes, they can be in bed rooms. That is not an issue.


No, They can not be in clothes closets or near combustibles. There is an amount of reasoning we have to use.

They can be behind locked doors, true. But rear the rest of it, there must be qualified personnel present to access the area at all times of operation and occupancy. The is for a utility closet in an office building that keeps the utility areas locked. There must be accessibility by qualified people at all times while the premises is occupied.

The fact about the bed room is only that it can not be blocked by stored items.
Earlier a comment was made about a car in the garage. That is a tough argument. it is ion wheels and not intended to be there all the time. I can't imagine an OSHA person siding on the fact that something can be moved.

In reality the bed is not an item that can't be located some where else. I guess if it were me I would just make a comment that the area should not have anything placed in front of the panel by 36" and a width of 30" for side and front distance total.

I would not condemn the situation, just made an informative statement for your liability and there well being. The likely hood of them placing the bed in the same location is according to the room lay out. By you informing them they can make that decision and you did your job. After all, most people are clueless about codes just like all of us previous to being involved in them.

It's a learning by exposure to information situation!

Bob P.

11

Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


kmcmahon wrote:
The 5'6" height requirement...is that a minimum or maximum height requirement? I'm already aware of the clearance requirements.

Found one 3' off the ground just above the kids bed ![icon_eek.gif](upload://yuxgmvDDEGIQPAyP9sRnK0D0CCY.gif)

[ Image: http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/more/Delisle026.jpg ]


I will keep with the question asked.

All switches and circuit breakers used as switches shall be installed so that the center of the grip of the operating handle of the switch or circuit breaker, when in its highest position, is not more than 2.0 m (6 ft 7 in.) above the floor

For a 'normal' dwelling unit there is no minimum height, however for mobile homes there is a minimum height.

Outdoor mobile home disconnecting means shall be installed so the bottom of the enclosure containing the disconnecting means is not less than 600 mm (2 ft) above finished grade or working platform.

The maximum height is the same as other occupancies.

--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum
12

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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I doubt there is one panel in 100 occupied homes that really has the required 60 <sumpin> cubic feet of unoccupied space in front of the panel.


The best we can hope for is they don’t have things that are too heavy to move or something that is fixed in place.

13

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Bob and Bob (and Greg),


I did not say that panels "cannot be" in bedrooms. I did say "It is not a stretch at all to conclude that bedrooms are full of "Easily Ignitible Material". "

YES, they CAN be.

YES, they are ALLOWED to be.

NO, they should not be. It is not a convenient place, nor a safe place, to locate them, see the photo which started this thread.

Greg Fretwell wrote:
I doubt there is one panel in 100 occupied homes that really has the required 60 <sumpin> cubic feet of unoccupied space in front of the panel.


Down here, I bet I find about 50% or more which are open access in front of the panel. Let's see, 2.5' x 3' x 8.5' = 63.75 sf, so about half of mine have it.

--
Jerry Peck
South Florida
14

Originally Posted By: Randy Flockton
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Who? What? Minimum height for a panel???


Here's one of Ryan Jackson's gems from ECN

![](upload://5mM05gUCSIwGeLxJYAZO5SqR3Dh.jpeg)


rest of the story here

--
"Prices subject to change with customers additude"

15

Originally Posted By: tallen
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


icon_eek.gif wow thats a good one

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where , however, it now sits, making rude remarks.


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