Originally Posted By: dcampbell This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Can a sub panel lay flat on a shelf that is built in, back over the wall on a cathedral ceiling. It is enclosed as if it was in the wall just laying flat.
Originally Posted By: jtedesco This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Enclosures for overcurrent devices are required to be mounted in a vertical position unless that is shown to be impracticable.
Circuit breaker enclosures are permitted to be installed horizontally where the circuit breaker is installed as follows:
Circuit breakers are required clearly indicate whether they are in the open ?off? or closed ?on? position.
Where circuit breaker handles are operated vertically rather than rotationally or horizontally, the ?up? position of the handle must be the ?on? position.
Originally Posted By: James D Mosier This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
When enclosures are vertically mounted on/in a wall the breakers generally operate horizontaly.
When enclosures are horizontally mounted on/in a wall the breakers generally operate vertically. "ON" must be up and clearly indicated.
Now we have a panel laying on its back. Horizontal? Yes.
Allowed? Only if vertically can be shown to be impracticable. Good luck showing that. Doesn't this house have walls?
What if the lady of the house keeps live plants up on that shelf, uses some kind of hand pump to water them, and over-does it? What if the family cat goes up there and decides to do it's business?
Originally Posted By: rmoewe This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
James D Mosier wrote:
What if the family cat goes up there and decides to do it's business?
If might come back with real puffy hair.   
Originally Posted By: jmcginnis This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Thanks Joe…
I have always mounted panels vertically as a matter of common practice and never noticed that particular code section before… it’s interesting that it is legal to mount a panel horizontally if vertical is “impractical”. Learn something new every day.
Originally Posted By: jtedesco This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
jmcginnis wrote:
Thanks Joe....
I have always mounted panels vertically as a matter of common practice and never noticed that particular code section before... it's interesting that it is legal to mount a panel horizontally if vertical is "impractical". Learn something new every day.
Courtesy: www.iaei.org
The new permission was added to accommodate a piece of equipment that had their panels laying flat, but the rule can also be interpreted to allow it to be mounted horizontally, and one row "where up is on" is allowed like in the picture.
Those types of column type panels were used in a factory.
HI's should not allow any panel laying flat to be excluded from their report.
Originally Posted By: roconnor This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Notice that NEC 240.33 is talking about the breaker orientation when the enclosure (i.e “cabinet”) is mounted on a wall or other vertical support … but it doesn’t state that.
The installation of the panel enclosure would be covered by Article 312, but I also don't see anything specific there about mounting the enclosure flat on it's back.
I would almost bet the ranch that panelboard enclosures are not listed to be mounted on a horizontal surface because of the possibility of moisture accumulation.
-- Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee
I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
Originally Posted By: jtedesco This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
When questions arise that are not easy to answer, the information that is available to those in the field who want to know some of the reasons for the changes, are substantiated by facts included in the original proposals that were sent to the Code Making Panels. Please read the following:
Originally Posted By: jtedesco This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
rmoewe wrote:
You do learn something new every day. I the inspection business it seams like you learn at least 3 or 4.   
Good Read
Richard, Thank you too!
I don't mind taking the time for researching the facts when necessary. I have most of the reports associated with the code as far back as the 1950's, they help me to get to the reasons for some of the changes in the code.
There is a problem though, the new members of the panels are without this real information, and make changes to the code on interpretation's by someone who reads the rule another way.
I could give examples, but will avoid them here to avoid thread drift.
Originally Posted By: rmoewe This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Joe, I understand. I have been told that the way the codes are written, is for lawyers. I guess that it is kind of like our inspection reports. I wish that they could make a code book that is not so hard to understand or interpret the codes. Kind of like my Summary Reports. It can get very confusing trying to figure them out.
Originally Posted By: roconnor This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
rmoewe wrote:
I wish that they could make a code book that is not so hard to understand or interpret the codes. Kind of like my Summary Reports.
Rich ... Try the IRC and go to Part VIII - Electrical (essentially an 80 page residential electrical code from the NEC) ... also CodeCheck has an excellent summary of the major/important requirements of the IRC, including electrical ... 
Joe ... I still think that NEC section would not directly prohibit a panel enclosure from being installed flat on it's back. Do ya know if the UL standard would prohibit that? I didn't see any such restrictions in the NEMA standard (PB 1.1), and don't have the UL standard handy. Seems like there should be a restriction due to the potential for moisture accumulation.
-- Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee
I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
