Originally Posted By: jpeck This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Joe,
Ha-ha, one of my favorite topics, but you must first include:
(B) Clear Spaces. Working space required by this section shall not be used for storage. When normally enclosed live parts are exposed for inspection or servicing, the working space, if in a passageway or general open space, shall be suitably guarded.
I have as yet to find any exceptions to 110-26(B). Do you know of any the code lists?
Originally Posted By: jtedesco This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Quote:
I asked for any exceptions to the Clear Space requirement, and, so far, no one has come up with any. Joe T.?
Joe T., here, so what is the mystery exception?
If the doors on the cabinet were 4 feet wide, and the work space in front was 3 feet, that would be a problem because the doors would not open to 90 degrees.
I started this post because I read where someone said that the panel had to be centered in the wide 30 inch space, and that is not true.
The NECH figure in the first message here is the way it should be interpreted.
Come back and tell us what is on your mind. 
Originally Posted By: jtedesco This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Thanks Jerry:
Quote:
(Beware, hidden agenda coming up.)
I was not too sure of what you had up your sleeve, now I understand.
The electrical designer has the option to locate the equipment in a space that will not become an issue, but the politics surrounding the building process will always stand in his or her way!
Originally Posted By: jpeck This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
jtedesco wrote:
The electrical designer has the option to locate the equipment in a space that will not become an issue, but the politics surrounding the building process will always stand in his or her way!
Joe,
I phrase that differently.
The electrical designer has the OBLIGATION to locate the equipment in a space that will not become an issue ... AND code officials are obligated to point it out when they do not.
Originally Posted By: jfarsetta This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Now lets get back to the real world…
I see panels located in the dumbest places, whether intentionally, or by modification at a later date (like finishing unfinished space).
You'd be really surprised where the AJH says its okay to install these things. So long as I can access them, with relative ease, and there are no obstructions to be safely removing the panel, I wont flag it.
We dont make the calls as to what's legal and what's not. Use these rules as a guideline for a common sense approach to these issues. I think Joe's diagram is an excellent guide.
-- Joe Farsetta
Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."
I see panels located in the dumbest places, whether intentionally, or by modification at a later date (like finishing unfinished space).
I agree, find them that way all too often, which is why we should point it out.
jfarsetta wrote:
You'd be really surprised where the AJH says its okay to install these things. So long as I can access them, with relative ease, and there are no obstructions to be safely removing the panel, I wont flag it.
No, it would be hard to surprise me as to where they are located. But that does not make it right ... or safe.
jfarsetta wrote:
We dont make the calls as to what's legal and what's not. Use these rules as a guideline for a common sense approach to these issues. I think Joe's diagram is an excellent guide.
No, but after we start calling things out and point out the stupidity of them, and how unsafe they are, the AHJ will, many times, start enforcing what they should have been enforcing all along. Better later than never.
Joe T., how safe it that access to the panels at the golf cart in the photo? Sure I could remove the covers, but I debated it, it really was not safe, there was only about a foot or less between the golf cart and the panels.
I started writing this up about 6 years ago or so, after inspecting a house with a car parked with less than 6" clearance to the panel. The sale was a divorce sale, the car was the husbands, he was in California, and he had the keys. The excuse always given by the AHJ is 'the car can always be moved'. Really? How about the time I saw a Model T undergoing restoration in front of the panel. That car can be moved? Overcurrent devices are required to have safe and ready access, even if the keys were there, and someone was there to move the car, what about during a storm? Who is going to back the car out during a storm so they can access and reset a breaker?
Now, tell me again why we (HIs) don't call that out.
Originally Posted By: jtedesco This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Quote:
Joe T., how safe is that access to the panels at the golf cart in the photo?
Jerry:
When the original inspection was performed during a final inspection, the equipment was readily accessible and it passed inspection.
After time, and it will always be the same, we find the situations you described!
The panelboards in your picture "are not readily accessible" and the covers are not installed, among other items that appear to be in violation.
I wouldn't leave that property if I was a HI without indicating that I could not complete my inspection of _____________ and be done with it.
If I was the local inspector I would give the owner 24 hours to make space, or call the police and write a citation. This of course is different around the country, and I can only offer my personal opinion here.
Originally Posted By: jpeck This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
jtedesco wrote:
When the original inspection was performed during a final inspection, the equipment was readily accessible and it passed inspection.
Joe T.,
Hope you don't mind me pushing this a little further, but ...
How about a panel located where you KNOW a clothes washer or dryer will go? Would you allow that, simply because it was 'readily accessible at the time of the municipal inspection'?
I suspect you would do as other inspectors do, tell them they need to relocate the panel where the clothes washer or dryer will not be under it. Am I right?
jtedesco wrote:
The panelboards in your picture "are not readily accessible" and the covers are not installed, among other items that appear to be in violation.
I was the one who removed those covers, and, yes, there were other things wrong, not just 'not being accessible'. I guess I would lose that argument because I did manage to get the covers off.
jtedesco wrote:
If I was the local inspector I would give the owner 24 hours to make space, or call the police and write a citation. This of course is different around the country, and I can only offer my personal opinion here.
That subdivision is full of houses with the panels installed where the golf carts go.
I have been calling this out for many years, and, while the location as not been completely changed, the garage locations (for the most part) are better, i.e., the return of the wall at the side of the garage door is being made deeper, to enhance the parking of the vehicle further from the wall with the panels on it. Moving the panels to the end of the garage, then placing them between the spaces for the two cars. Things like that. That is at least progress in the right direction.
I still like the e-mail I received which I posted, 'either move it or protect that space', and the builder decides there really is a better space for it after all.
Originally Posted By: jtedesco This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Jerry:
Quote:
I suspect you would do as other inspectors do, tell them they need to relocate the panel where the clothes washer or dryer will not be under it. Am I right?
Yes!
That's one of the reasons why an official plan review is important, even for only one dwelling.
Seems like the issue is coming back after many years of discussions about accessibility.
Originally Posted By: jpeck This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Joe,
That's what I thought.
So what is different about that than telling them 'Guys, this is a GARAGE, you STORE cars in a garage. In fact, the layout of the garage is such that a CAR WILL BE STORED right in that panel's required working space, clear space? You cannot put a panel there anymore than you can put one where the clothes washer or dryer are going to go. WE KNOW what is going there, allow for it, or protect that space with bollards and lose the vehicle parking space. I'm not telling you what to do, I am giving you a choice: a) move the panel, b) install a bollard and lose a vehicle parking space, and it is your choice." (all caps is not yelling, just adding emphasis to those words)
All we need are a few more AHJ do that and the word will spread, as will the corrective actions.
