Existing One and Two & Multifamily Family Dwellings

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1

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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Existing One and Two & Multifamily Family Dwellings


This is the subject of my seminar to be presented at NACHI Chapters around the country. It is designed specifically for Home Inspectors who may need some help in this area.

Here is the link for the class:

http://www.nachi.org/electricalseminar.htm

My question:

How many of the Home Inspectors here would like to see the existing forum title "Electrical" replaced with the title: Electrical Systems in Existing Dwelling Units?

We would focus on: "One and Two & Multifamily Family Dwellings."

or another Forum with this title instead?

My reason is only to stay focused on this area and avoid getting in areas beyond.

--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

2

Originally Posted By: jsavino
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Joe


I look forward to a seminar in my area (Long Island). My weakness is electrical, and your help is well appreciated. I view your posts daily, and have learned much from them. Changing the heading is fine with me!


Thanks again,

--
John Savino
HomeWorks Inspection Services, LLC
St. James, NY
631.379.4241

3

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


The Long Island Chapter of NACHI is planing to have a seminar in June and a Florida Chapter is having one in August.


I want to help all Home Inspectors learn more about inspecting older dwelling units and I guess we can start here.

--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

4

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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Isn’t “One and Two & Multifamily Family Dwellings” inferred?


Doing an electrical inspection on something other would require a 'certificate'!

Mike P.

5

Originally Posted By: John Bowman
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Mike P.,


Yes it is inferred. However, we tend to have some people who drift from the subject and start inserting commercial codes into the equations.

This really confuses those Home Inspectors (me included) who are familiarizing/refamiliarizing themselves with NEC's and their intent only to have a "but what if" situation thrown into the mix that involves commercial applications.

We are priviliged to have so many fine electrical experts join us on this board. We only respectfully request from those of you that know the code's inside and out, that you don't confuse matters by throwing in Commercial Code to show your electrical superiority.

Please stick with what we inspect, homes.

6

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Mike Parks wrote:
Isn't "One and Two & Multifamily Family Dwellings" inferred?

Doing an electrical inspection on something other would require a 'certificate'!

Mike P.


Mike: I found many home inspectors in Ohio. Are you saying that they cannot make an electrical inspection with their NACHI Certification?

Please clarify your statement?

Your web page tells customers that Home Inspectors are Inferior.

http://www.yourhomesok.com/insurance.htm

Quote:
What Insurance Companies might do!

At present major insurance companies are developing criteria regarding insuring homes with older electrical systems. One of the requirements will be to have the electrical system examined by a licensed electrician.

Who would you want to inspect your electrical system? A home inspector with no state qualifications?

Or a home inspector who is licensed by the State of Ohio as an Electrical Contractor (OH Lic. #26286) and certified by the State of Ohio as an Electrical Safety Inspector (OH. Cert. #1820)?


![icon_rolleyes.gif](upload://iqxt7ABYC2TEBomNkCmZARIrQr6.gif)






--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm
7

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Joe


"Mike: I found many home inspectors in Ohio. Are you saying that they cannot make an electrical inspection with their NACHI Certification?"

It is not me it is The State of Ohio.

Please do not take this the wrong way. If you are not certified by The State of Ohio not only are you NOT qualified and you are in conflict with the ORC (Ohio Revised Code).

This is why I want HI's to be licensed.

SO: That you can make some kind of statements regarding electrical systems.

As the law is written a 'master' electrician can not make these inspections.

Mike P.

8

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Mike Parks wrote:
Joe

"Mike: I found many home inspectors in Ohio. Are you saying that they cannot make an electrical inspection with their NACHI Certification?"

It is not me it is The State of Ohio.

Please do not take this the wrong way. If you are not certified by The State of Ohio not only are you NOT qualified and you are in conflict with the ORC (Ohio Revised Code).


Mike,

For the interest of all who are reading this thread, please copy and paste the law prohibiting / requiring this on this thread. I am curious as to the laws exact wording.

Thank you,

Jerry

--
Jerry Peck
South Florida
9

Originally Posted By: John Bowman
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Good post Jerry P. Thanks.

10

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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Jerry


You have told me before that you think that I am incorrect on this.

It is 3783 of the ORC.

I will be back in a few minutes when I retrieve it from the website.

Mike P.

11

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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So you know that I have not taken this out context use this link:


http://onlinedocs.andersonpublishing.com/oh/lpExt.dll?f=templates&fn=main-h.htm&cp=PORC

Scroll down the left side and find Title XXXVII follow it to 3783.

I will let you tell me what it says.

Mike P.

12

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Mike,


First, start here.

3783.06. Prohibition.
No person shall engage in the practice of electrical inspection in this state unless he is the holder of a certificate of competency as an electrical safety inspector issued under Chapter 3783. of the Revised Code. Any person practicing or offering to practice electrical inspection shall show proof of his certification upon request as provided by rules of the board of building standards.
HISTORY: 133 v H 991 (Eff 9-4-70); 135 v H 1. Eff 3-22-73.

Then go to here.

3783.01. Definitions.
As used in sections 3783.01 to 3783.08, inclusive, of the Revised Code:
(A) "Electrical safety inspector" means a person who is certified as provided in Chapter 3783. of the Revised Code.
(B) The "practice of electrical inspection" includes any ascertainment of compliance with the Ohio building code, or the electrical code of a political subdivision of this state by a person, who, for compensation, inspects the construction and installation of electrical conductors, fittings, devices, and fixtures for light, heat or power services equipment, or the installation, alteration, replacement, maintenance, or repair of any electrical wiring and equipment that is subject to any of the aforementioned codes.
(C) "Ohio building code" means the rules and regulations adopted by the board of building standards under Chapter 3781. of the Revised Code.
(D) "Board of building standards" or "board" means the board established by section 3781.07 of the Revised Code.
HISTORY: 133 v H 991. Eff 9-4-70.

Reviewing:

"No person shall engage in the practice of electrical inspection ... "

"The "practice of electrical inspection" includes any ascertainment of compliance with the Ohio building code, or the electrical code of a political subdivision of this state ... "

Do you see why it does not apply to HIs in Ohio?

--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

13

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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No.


It does not say that this is for goverment employees only.

It say no person shall.

OK Tell me what it means.

Mike P.

14

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Why is this in the ORC if this only applies to goverment employees?


? 3783.06. Prohibition.


No person shall engage in the practice of electrical inspection in this state unless he is the holder of a certificate of competency as an electrical safety inspector issued under Chapter 3783. of the Revised Code. Any person practicing or offering to practice electrical inspection shall show proof of his certification upon request as provided by rules of the board of building standards.


HISTORY: 133 v H 991 (Eff 9-4-70); 135 v H 1. Eff 3-22-73.


Then why would anyone have to show prove of this certificate?

I must carry mine at all times. They (the state) gives a card to carry.

Mike P.

15

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Mike,


Not sure where you got that "It does not say that this is for government employees only." from, I never mentioned anything about government.

"It say no person shall. ", no, it does not. It says "No person shall engage in the practice of electrical inspection ... " You must keep reading to find out what "no person shall engage in". That says that no person shall engage in the "practice of electrical inspection". It is very specific an dis spelled out that way.

Now, you must go to the definitions to find out exactly what no person shall engage in. I.e., to find out what, by definition, is the "practice of electrical inspection". Just so happens that this is defined, specifically.

"The "practice of electrical inspection" includes any ascertainment of compliance with the Ohio building code, or the electrical code of a political subdivision of this state ...

Okay, so we now know that the "practice of electrical inspection" is defined as checking for code compliance. And we also know that is not what HIs do.

Thus, by definition, HIs are excluded out of that requirement, because they are not doing 'code compliance' inspections.

--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

16

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Jerry


I was answering Joe's question

"Mike: I found many home inspectors in Ohio. Are you saying that they cannot make an electrical inspection with their NACHI Certification?"

I am not saying that they can not check, I am saying that they can not perform an electrical safety inspection.

I was on the 'electrical' inspection question.

Are we still missing each other?

Mike P.

17

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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Let us say that you looked at my panel. And the GEC was missing. You call that out.


Since the 19xx NEC IS codified you are now making an ascertainment of the code.

Mike P

18

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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No, as you, and everyone else, points out, HIs do not do code inspections.


About the furthest you might be able to stretch that would be if an HI were to write that up for correction and red tag it.

"compliance with" (as in "includes any ascertainment of compliance with") is not defined, so I went and looked up a definition of "compliance"

One entry found for compliance.

Main Entry: com?pli?ance
Pronunciation: k&m-'plI-&n(t)s
Function: noun
1 a : the act or process of complying to a desire, demand, or proposal or to coercion b : conformity in fulfilling official requirements
2 : a disposition to yield to others
3 : the ability of an object to yield elastically when a force is applied : FLEXIBILITY

Code inspectors do code compliance inspections, and, it seems, so do electrical safety inspectors (in Ohio), which is best described in 1 b: conformity in fulfilling official requirements

HIs do not have any official duty to fulfill and are not doing code compliance inspections.

Also, that section was pretty much written to exclude government employees as it also includes a requirement for applicability of this section to only those who fit this: "by a person, who, for compensation,", the person must be doing it for compensation, and government employees do not do it for compensation.

This was written specifically to make sure that those who call themselves an "Electrical safety inspector" and say they do an "electrical inspection", FOR A FEE, ARE CERTIFIED as required by that section.

--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

19

Originally Posted By: ekartal
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Joe,


Is the Chicago area part of your world tour? ![icon_cool.gif](upload://oPnLkqdJc33Dyf2uA3TQwRkfhwd.gif)

Erol Kartal

20

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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… “Electrical” is a major subdivision of the HI practice area … which really does just involve inspection of residential dwellings. It is also broken out that way in many HI references, reporting systems/forms, as well as the NACHI and NHIE HI Exams.


So I think we should stick to the traditional description HI's use and are familiar with, and keep that under one topic ... which will also avoid too much fragmentation. While some posts do get off topic (present company included sometimes ... lol), that sometimes happens in many of the forums ... but I don't see that as a significant problem ... ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)

Mike P... Having worked as a building official I agree with Jerry that HI's are not performing an electrical inspection as defined under that Ohio law, because they are not (or should not be) determining code compliance. I have said this many times before ... an HI should not be quoting codes in general or calling anything a code violation, and it seems it is actually against the law in Ohio (probably many other states too).

The bottom line is an HI is looking for safety hazards or issues, not code violations, and model building codes are just a tool to use as a guide in making informed observations ...

P.S. I do agree that HI's should be licensed in general ... ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)

Just my 2-nickles

--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong