Are you saying you don’t recommend adding GFCI where necessary? I don’t say defects often I have them in the report as “findings”. I recommend upgrading for safety and explain they weren’t required when built. 90% of homes here built between 1900-1980
GFI’s can also provide a degree of protection for any replaced 3 prong receptacles (on 1st floor?) which lack an EG.
As Bryce has stated, the panel is clearly over-fused and an immediate correction is needed by an electrician, and can include a quick simple replacement of 30a to a properly sized S-type fuse AND adapter, on the hot conductors.
Recommending an upgrade is different than a defect.
IMO, 2 prong receptacles are not a defect. But recommending an upgrade for additional safety is ok.
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Some states explicitly call improper AFCI & GFCI coverage a defect:
(1) The inspector shall:
…
(C) report as Deficient:
(i) the absence of ground-fault circuit interrupter protection in all:
(I) bathroom receptacles;
(II) garage and accessory building receptacles;
(III) outdoor receptacles;
(IV) crawl space receptacles and lighting outlets;
(V) basement receptacles;
(VI) receptacles that serve kitchen countertops;
(VII) receptacles that are located within six feet of the outside edge of a sink, shower, or bathtub;
(VIII) laundry area receptacles;
(IX) indoor damp and wet location receptacles;
(X) kitchen dishwasher receptacle; and
(XI) electrically heated floors;
(ii) the absence of arc-fault protection in the following locations:
(I) kitchens;
(II) family rooms;
(III) dining rooms;
(IV) living rooms;
(V) parlors;
(VI) libraries;
(VII) dens;
(VIII) bedrooms;
(IX) sunrooms;
(X) recreation rooms;
(XI) closets;
(XII) hallways; and
(XIII) laundry area
I support that standard. If I wasn’t familiar with electrical safety and I bought a house without GFCI and the inspector didn’t call it out and a family member got electrocuted in the bathroom… I’d think they didn’t do a very good job.
As my instructor used to say “your client’s lack of safety is never grandfathered in!”
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1940 home. Only 2 prong receptacles. No GFCI, no 3 prong and no AFCI.
I never said not to make a safety statement, I said it is not a defect. Any changes you make to that home for additional safety that was not required when the home was built is considered an upgrade (state SOP outstanding).
There is a little statement one can make…“Though likely not required when the home was built, I consider the lack of …XXXX…a safety concern. I recommend upgrading…XXXX…per modern standards for additional safety.”
This is just my opinion. It will be a pissing match between the buyer and seller and may or may not make your phone ring with a complaint. These complaints are typical when we try to hold old homes to modern standards. I think acknowledging it is an old home and making safety recommendations is good business.
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Yea, thats a smart way to stay neutral and not make waves.
But what do you think about Texas’s definition of defect? It says nothing about building standards when the house was built. And from a consumers perspective, I think that makes sense.
- Deficiency --In the reasonable judgment of the inspector, a condition that:
(A) adversely and materially affects the performance of a system, or component; or
(B) constitutes a hazard to life, limb, or property as specified by these standards of practice.
I think you have a state standard that requires it be called a defect, then great! That standard becomes the authority and you did your job per the agreed upon standard.
NACHI SOP requires we report on lack of smoke/carbon detectors in the same room as the fireplace. Easy for me to do. I call it out no matter the age of the home etc.
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Oh yea, I’m just batting around inspection theory with someone who seems to be knowledgeable. I like picking things apart.
But I see your point, from our perspective of evaluating homes from many different eras, maybe “defect” is a little heavy handed.
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I agree, we are dancing with nuance.
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Good way to put it.
I recommend GFCI’s in wet areas, as a safety upgrade, even for older homes. For fuses I strongly recommend immediate Type S replacement.
For K&T I look carefully for overloads and modifications, then recommend strategic new circuits to keep the load within the comfortable zone, and in some cases a two pole AFCI and/or under-fusing the K&T.
(Space heaters are really problematic no matter the electrical system, and catch fire all the time, so that’s it’s own subject).
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I’ve seen/heard/read this over the years and it always kind of grates on me - at it’s core this is saying any house built before the current code MUST be brought up to the current code. Sure, we can all point out the easy things like GFI/AFI protection but what about the more subtle things? Should a HI recommend a house wired in 1988 be completely rewired since they changed the heat rating on NM cable around 1990? Should a house be rewired with color-coded Romex that came about in +/- 2000 since it’s safer for people working on the system? These are just two random/easy examples that come to mind as a HI. If we dig into the electric code in any depth we could come up with hundreds if not thousands of changes that would require a house to be totally re-wired to have the latest and greatest safety in place. After all, “there’s no grandfathering safety” right???
IMO, that’s just a completely unrealistic expression that, for whatever reason, gets repeated in our industry to make inspectors feel good. And mschneide5, I don’t mean any attack on your personally at all. I know you’re just repeating something you heard (and I’ve heard many times too).
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Some will call out the lack of AFCI protection a defect on a 50 year old home even though when replacing the 50 year old service in the house they still aren’t required by the NEC to be installed.
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Interesting, is that due to an existing homes provision?
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thank you for your insight!
For the sake of argument, Wouldn’t proper AFCI coverage eliminate that possible concern?
Thats an interesting one. Because I do normally call out similar hazards to technicians, like shut off location and marking neutrals used as hot. But it also seems reasonable to expect electricians to not rely on color coding for determining amperage/gauge.
I’d love to learn about more things like that.
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Ok I suppose my semantics are off here. I agree. In the report I say recommend upgrading for safety. In person I tell people a lot of these things were modern at the time of installation and the changes are simply recommended for safety. My state’s SOP for electrical seems pretty lax.
Check it out here. https://firemarshal.wv.gov/Documents/Certification%20of%20Home%20Inspectors%2087CSR5%20FINAL%20FILE%202014.pdf
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Ultimately it seems like there’s a lot of gray area in the “subtle things”.
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So true. I recently inspected a home in which the shingles were exhibiting conditions of a well known manufacture defect. However, the shingles were 20 years old and in need of replacement regardless of the defect. Do you mention the well known manufacturer defect or just state the current condition?
In the end, the subtle things are what you are paid for and your opinion matters. Anyone can point our a broken shingle, but the nuances must be examined in order to fully serve your clients best interest.
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Raze, rebuild, repeat: why Japan knocks down its houses after 30 years
Unlike in other countries, Japanese homes become valueless over time – but as the population shrinks, can its cities finally learn to slow down and refurb?
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I’ve seen this… fascinating that their housed depreciate like our cars!