Gate latch height?

Originally Posted By: hgordon
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Hi all…what is the required gate latch height for a gate to a 2003 property that is water front…and installing a pool?


Originally Posted By: jhagarty
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edit



Joseph Hagarty


HouseMaster / Main Line, PA
joseph.hagarty@housemaster.com
www.householdinspector.com

Phone: 610-399-9864
Fax : 610-399-9865

HouseMaster. Home inspections. Done right.

Originally Posted By: hgordon
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Out…so as not to allow the child to “lean and access” the water.


Originally Posted By: jhagarty
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deleted



Joseph Hagarty


HouseMaster / Main Line, PA
joseph.hagarty@housemaster.com
www.householdinspector.com

Phone: 610-399-9864
Fax : 610-399-9865

HouseMaster. Home inspections. Done right.

Originally Posted By: hgordon
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Child “trips and falls” INTO the gate and it opens…bad thing…they really did not want to go in…but now that they see the water…



Child "pulls open" the gate by desire...they wanted access and proceeded to...


Originally Posted By: jedwards
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(I know better than to post here after a long, tedious inspection on an old foreclosure property, followed by a few beers, but what the hey…)


I'll probably never be considered a "good" home inspector by many, because I generally don't think in terms of numbers, formulas, physics, code, or whatever. As it happens, the majority of my jobs are older houses which have been standing on their own for years without my approval (or anyone else's) or lack thereof. I can look up all of the "standards" (which are dicey enough just because HI's in general shouldn't quote "code"-- I know I'm not qualified to, despite having all the Code Checks), and I know enough to report on whether or not a branch circuit is overfused, etc., but I'm no engineer. I've completed the minimum licensing requirements for my state, can recognize most foundation problems, and can probably pass most any HI exam, but that's about it. Frankly I couldn't answer Harvey's original question to "standards" regarding the latch height without a book in front of me. (I would call out a deck guardrail with five-inch gaps between the balusters, though...)

I tell every one of my clients, going in, that the first and foremost question I ask myself while inspecting a property is, "Could a child get hurt here?" From that perspective I can see where Joe H. is coming from. But IMHO it's not the home inspector's perogative to analyze or report on parental supervision. I did a big, really nice house with an exterior Zinsco combo box with a *missing deadfront* just a couple weeks ago that could have killed a neighbor kid with the BEST parents in the world, who wandered away from her backyard for just a minute or two (having raised two as a single Dad, I can tell you, it happens). Today I got shocked while kneeling on a concrete carport floor while opening a spring-loaded receptacle cover in a metal exterior box to plug in a tester. In my most humble opinion, regarding Harvey's original question, the answer has way less to do with "minimum latch height" or, regarding Joe H's answer, parental supervision, than the HI's common-sense analysis of potential danger (not to mention liability) and how he/she reports it.

Okay, I'll just come out and say it. I think that we sometimes get way too caught up in numbers and such. Yeah, the standards, codes, etc., are there for a reason, and we should respect and refer to them. But in Harvey's specific example, I'd have no problem in bypassing them in favor of recommending that the gate be secured so as to prevent inadvertent access by a wandering child.

It just doesn't seem like that difficult a question.

(I'll go back into my hole now.)


--
John Edwards
Assurance South, LLC home page
Pre-Paid Legal Services

Originally Posted By: cmccann
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Great post John,


I to often wonder why so many here pole vault over stuff when it's right there in front of them. I often have to look at things and determine "Is it doing what it was intended to do?" The latch is it working like it was intended to do? Yes or No?


--
NACHI MAB!

Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



All measurements are taken on the outside of the fence / gate.


Minimum fence and gate height - 48"
Maximum height of bottom rail of fence and gate - 2" above ground
Maximum space must not allow a 4" sphere to pass through *
* If the second rail is less than 45" above the bottom rail, maximum spacing is reduced to 1 3/4"

Minimum latch height above bottom rail of gate or ground if no bottom rail - 54" **
Minimum release mechanism height above bottom rail of gate or ground if no bottom rail - 54" *
** IF below 54" (applies to both latch and release mechanism
- must be at least 3" BELOW top of fence or gate
- must be protected for 18" in all directions
- must not have any gaps or spaces larger than 1/2" within 18" in any directions

Gates must swing out from the pool area.

That will get you started on pool and spa barriers. Oh, yeah, gate must also self close.


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: hgordon
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Quote:
"Is it doing what it was intended to do?" The latch is it working like it was intended to do? Yes or No?


I don't even know where to begin with a statement like that!
1. Yes it is doing what the "product" was designed to do...CLOSE A GATE
2. Yes it is working like a LATCH should work.

BUT

No, it is not installed correctly to prevent Little Johnny from walk across the street onto your clients property, while mom just happened to go to the bathroom due to a bad stomach. At what point Johnny reaches up, being only 5 or 6 he is in the habit of liking to play in the water...and LOVES feeding the ducks...which by the way, mom takes him to do each day. So with bread in hand, he comes over...oops! No more Johnny!

Answer that when the attorney stands before the jury and says that you didn't write it because: "Is it doing what it was intended to do?"


Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



cmccann wrote:
I often have to look at things and determine "Is it doing what it was intended to do?" The latch is it working like it was intended to do? Yes or No?


Chuck,

Please define "Is it doing what it was intended to do?".

If you don't KNOW what it is intended to do, you either need to look it up or disclaim it and not inspect it.

What is the fence intended to do?

What is the gate intended to do?

What is the latch intended to do?


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: hgordon
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Jerry thanks…will that work for Water Front properties?


Also, could you help me with:

http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/viewtopic.php?t=5684

http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/viewtopic.php?t=5683


Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



hgordon wrote:
Jerry thanks...will that work for Water Front properties?


Not sure what this question is asking, but, yes, it also applies to waterfront property. The waterfront side also need to be protected. Remember, the barrier is to keep children OUT OF the pool, and the waterfront provides a means of access, to the barrier needs to be there also.

Quote:
Also, could you help me with:

http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/viewtopic.php?t=5684

http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/viewtopic.php?t=5683


Already did make posts there.


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: cmccann
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



My point is that if the latch is working in a safe condition and the gate closes as it was intended to do, then what’s the problem? If you wish to pole vault over it go ahead. I choose not to work that way. Florida is different then Michigan, out of about 300 homes in my sub maybe 5 have a pool. Sorry to interject. I wish not to be slammed by JP or you Harvey. That’s what I get for posting again. Sorry…



NACHI MAB!

Originally Posted By: hgordon
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Chuck…not slammin ya!


Just stating the obvious...stove were made to have a door to the oven open...but unless you install the free manufacturer supplied Anti-Tip bracket...well you get my point.

Sometimes we need to state the obvious, other times we we need to state the not so obvious.

Harvey


Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



cmccann wrote:
My point is that if the latch is working in a safe condition and the gate closes as it was intended to do, then what's the problem?


The problem? Your use of the words stating it is "working in a safe condition" and "the gate closes as it was intended to do".

On pool barriers, the "intent" is safety. whether or not the latch works and the gate opens and closes does not relate to what the fence and gate is "intended" to do.

Quote:
I wish not to be slammed by JP or you Harvey. That's what I get for posting again. Sorry....


No one is slamming you. You made some statements which implied that you consider a safety barrier "safe" if the latch latches and the gate closes. There is more to a safety barrier 'working as intended", i.e., providing safety protection, than just closing and latching.

Not slamming you, just clarifying and correcting. Isn't that what this forum is for? Sharing information for learning?


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: cmccann
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



I think we are losing the point.


Proper height for a pool gate latch. Is the latch 2 feet off the ground? Upside down, what? Or is the latch 4' 2". Harvey, are you needing this information to put on a report? I guess what I was trying to say is I look at the pool gate and latch to see if it's working "properly" and as it was intended to do.

How about this. Install a logging chain through fence and gate and padlock. Put the key in a place where Johnny can't get to it when you are not watching him. ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif) Slammed was the wrong word......


--
NACHI MAB!

Originally Posted By: dfrend
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Quote:
I understand the "heart" of your post John...but, at least down here in Florida, you simply cannot "say" what you want...there has to be 3 determining factors:
1. Is it broken
2. Is it missing
3. If none of the above, "does it have to OR is it REQUIRED" Required by EITHER the manufacturer and/or the code.


I know I'll get slammed too, but I have to disagree with the theory here. I am not sure what the "requirements" in FL are, but aren't you being hired for your "opinion". Why can't you give them your opinion? We all know that government/corporate fighting holds many things back from being code even if they should be. If you find a situation where something may be a better/safer solution, even if it is not REQUIRED, why can't you suggest it?

In one county nearby, code requires EVERY bedroom to have a smoke alarm in it. Another county code nearby does not require it, an alarm in a hall nearby is sufficient. This being the case, if you are in the home that does not require it, you can't "suggest" that in your "opinion" they should add one in each bedroom? Hell, even in older homes where the code was less? Sure, a seller/builder probably won't pay for it, but at least they have an idea that maybe they should do it sometime after moving in.

I am hired to report on the condition and give my opinion. The purpose of my inspections is to protect my client. From buying a lemon, and also from injuries and unnecessary monetary loss.


--
Daniel R Frend
www.nachifoundation.org
The Home Inspector Store
www.homeinspectorstore.com

Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Chuck, Daniel,


The problem comes with calling something "working as intended" when it was NOT intended to work that way.

You are putting, so to speak, your a$$ on the line. In this case, should anything happen which involves the pool barrier gate, YOU said it was OKAY, even though CODE says it IS NOT okay. You think you will be asked to fork over mucho money by the insurance company when they settle with the homeowner? I'd say you can count on it.

Even if you are not (none of us do) doing a code inspection, you are expected to be able to recognize something unsafe like that.

If you live in an area which is many different requirements in the many different communities, I'd start collecting the most stringent requirements in the different areas, then use that as a guide as to what is acceptable or not.

When someone comes back and says 'That is not required HERE.", you simply state "Maybe not, but IT IS RECOGNIZED as being SAFER in this area (meaning within the surrounding area, which is where you got it from)." They then state "But the SELLER does not have to do that.", to which you reply "That is between the seller and the BUYER, not between you and me. I am pointing out this as not being as safe as it could be, and I am not changing my report. IF my CLIENT does not want to address this, that is their option." And it is the client's (the buyer's) option to accept or not accept anything you point out. You (the HI) cannot enforce anything on anyone.[/list]


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: cmccann
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Jerry,


When doing an inspection I'm LOOKING for safety items and items not working properly or not installed as they were intended to be.


Ok now here we go, I said looking, I don't write in a report. "The pool gate and latch are working as intended." If it's working and it's safe I don't say anything. I think we agree on that if it's installed correctly and it's doing was it was intended to do but is still unsafe, that most definitely will be called out. Are you also stating that I'm responsible for code violation's even though the agreement says this is not a code inspection? If so then let's quit beating around the bush and let's make it a requirement that home inspectors be code inspectors.


--
NACHI MAB!

Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



cmccann wrote:
Ok now here we go, I said looking, I don't write in a report. "The pool gate and latch are working as intended." If it's working and it's safe I don't say anything. I think we agree on that if it's installed correctly and it's doing was it was intended to do but is still unsafe, that most definitely will be called out.


I think we may be worlds apart on how we define what is working and unsafe.

Regardless of whether or not the latch operates in latching and unlatching the gate, IF THE LATCH is not high enough, easily accessible, etc., then IT IS UNSAFE.

What makes it UNSAFE? I don't know what UNSAFE is, so I rely on experts to determine that. In this case, those experts put down what unsafe is for me, for Harvey, for you, and for anyone else to use it they so chose. It is called 'the code'. Are we code inspectors? No. Can we enforce code? No. Do we inspect for code? Well ... umm ... that is not a real easy or cut-and-dried answer. The only way to determine if something is "working as intended" is to know how it was "intended to be used and intended to be installed". Make sense? Sure. Okay, how do we know how it was intended to be used and installed? Well, one great source of that information is the code. Another is the manufacturer's installation instructions and their use instructions. I don't know about you guys, but I do not have the time to find, let alone read, the installation instructions for everything we see installed. I'm kind of lazy, so I go to a more condensed single source - the code, for my basic backup knowledge.


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida