GFCI circuit question

Originally Posted By: dfrend
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I saw something the other day at a new construction home I was inspecting that I have not seen in any other homes. My weakest point is electrical so I just want some feedback on why this was done. Was it just to save money?


The home had 3 GFCI outlets. The one underneath the electrical panel was tripped when I got there. It shut off the two exterior outlets and the gareage outlets. The second was in the kitchen. It controlled about 8 outlets in the kitchen. The third was in the downstairs bathroom. It also controlled the outlets in the two upstairs bathrooms.

My client had walked through and had even taken a radio and plugged it in to some outlets. They got really confused when the ones outside and the bathrooms did not work and all the breakers were OK. Now I figured it out in about a minute, but if they hadn't been told this they may have called an electrician had they not dicsovered it. Of course the builder did not show them.

Is this just saving a few bucks or what? I don't understand


--
Daniel R Frend
www.nachifoundation.org
The Home Inspector Store
www.homeinspectorstore.com

Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley
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I see that down here on homes built in the last two years when the outlet outside the bathroom door is within 6’ of the bathroom water source. It makes almost as much sense as the outlet on the back side of the breakfast bar or kitchen island. It probably does save some bucks for the builder too.


I'm sure Rob or Jerry can come up with a code for it ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)


Originally Posted By: Guest
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I’m almost positive this is an acceptable installation. Downstream devices are allowed to be controlled by a single GFCI.


OK, I’m done now, Chad Fabry


Originally Posted By: dfrend
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I did not notice it, and the client did not mention what they found till I started on the second floor to work down and saw no GFCI in the bathrooms of a new home. The circuit worked with the tester.



Daniel R Frend


www.nachifoundation.org


The Home Inspector Store


www.homeinspectorstore.com

Originally Posted By: khamilton
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When I wired a house in Frederick Co., MD, about 9 years ago the electrical inspector wanted all of the (non-dedicated, generic countertop) plugs in the kitchen to be on two separate circuits, each protected by a GFCI and he wanted them to alternate…so that plug “A” was on GFCI “1”, plug “B” was on GFCI “2”, plug “C” was on GFCI “1”, plug “D” was on GFCI “2” and so on around the room!


![icon_rolleyes.gif](upload://iqxt7ABYC2TEBomNkCmZARIrQr6.gif)

Kip


Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley
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I thought you were asking if it was just cheap for the outlet outside one of the bathrooms to be on the GFCI circuit.


If you are asking about all bathrooms being on the same GFCI circuit, that is normal installation. Most houses I do have the bathrooms on one circuit or possibly with the garage, the kitchen counter on alternating GFCI plugs as Kip posted, and the exterior either on their own or with the garage.

When I upgraded my parents home, I put the exterior and garage on the same circuit, which was 5 outlets. So, all sounds normal to me.


Originally Posted By: jmyers
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If my memory serves me correctly, the bathroom receptacles are not allowed to serve any other outlets than those in the bathroom space. so that would make that installation “illegal” as far as the NEC codes are concerned.


I am sure some of our more electrically knowledgable guru's can confirm this.

Joe Myers


Originally Posted By: jpeck
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There are a couple of different questions going on in this thread.


First, you can have receptacles downstream protected by one GFCI device.

Next, bathroom receptacle circuits, since 1993 I think it was, may not have any other receptacles on them, only bathroom receptacles.

Then, prior to the above, the bathroom receptacles could be on the same circuit as the garage, the outside, etc., all controlled by one GFCI device.

I didn't quite get what was being asked about the receptacle outside a bathroom but within 6' of the bathroom door (or something like that). Used to be allowed on the bathroom circuit, not any more, and was never required. Must have been just a lazy electrician. Nowadays, though, that is not allowed (off the bathroom GFCI circuits).

Did I forget something being asked?


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Jerry,


It was my understanding that any outlet in the bathroom could be run off that circuit, given it terminated in the bathroom space. Meaning that the required bathroom circuit could aslo serve the light outlets in that space, given they are teminating in the bathroom.

Is that correct?

Joe Myers


Originally Posted By: jpeck
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jmyers wrote:
Jerry,

It was my understanding that any outlet in the bathroom could be run off that circuit, given it terminated in the bathroom space. Meaning that the required bathroom circuit could also serve the light outlets in that space, given they are terminating in the bathroom.

Is that correct?

Joe Myers


No, and then yes. (Versus yes, and then no.)

You can ONLY do that if that one bathroom has a dedicated circuit, the circuit goes to that bathroom ONLY, no place else.

The difference is the reason I always try to use "receptacles" (or "receptacle outlets") instead of "outlets"

Circuits for bathroom "receptacle outlets" must have no other "outlets", except, when there is a dedicated circuit to that bathroom, then all bathroom "outlets" may be on that circuit, including "receptacle outlets".

Like with AFCIs.

1999 NEC required AFCIs for all bedroom "receptacle circuits", effective 2002. The 2002 NEC changed that to all bedroom "outlets". Now, it means "lighting outlets", "smoke detector outlets", "ceiling fan outlets", "receptacle outlets", etc.


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: eharden
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Quote:
The home had 3 GFCI outlets. The one underneath the electrical panel was tripped when I got there.


Daniel,
Did you reset the tripped GFCI? If so, I would be careful doing that. My thinking here is that when you reset something that you did not trip, it will increase your liability in the event that something should go wrong as a result of resetting. Members and visitors, is this a proper line of thinking?


--
Eric Harden
First Choice Inspection Services

"That which does not kill me, makes me stronger."

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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Jerry is basically saying there are two options permitted by NEC 210.11©(3) [or IRC E3603.4] for bathrooms:


1. Install one 20A circuit to supply only the GFCI protected outlets for all the bathrooms
2. Install multiple 20A dedicated circuits, with a circuit run to each bathroom ... which can only supply the GFCI outlet as well as other outlets and equipment [rated less than 10A] at each bathroom.

A lot of people consider the first Option #1 with a single 20A circuit poor practice. Just two larger hair dryers (about 15A each) going at the same time would trip the breaker. Plus all the outlets can be wired from one ?master? GFCI outlet in the first bathroom, since the code only requires all the bathroom outlets to be GFCI ?protected? [per NEC 210.8(A) or IRC E3802]. But, it meets the ?code minimum? which is intended to provide a safe, but not necessarily practical, installation.

Even with one 20A circuit going to all the bathrooms, it is considered better practice to put GFCI outlets in each bathroom [and also wire them to trip individually, with downstream GFCI outlets connected to the ?line? terminals]. Then a GFCI fault/trip will be at each individual outlet, and not at a remotely located master GFCI ... ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)

The second Option #2 is considered the best practice, but a little more expensive to wire up. Plus any lights can be wired through the ?line? terminals of the GFCI outlet if needed, or from a completely different circuit, so a GCFI trip doesn?t kill the bathroom light too. On a low bid job it may not be done with separate circuits for each bathroom ? sometimes you get what you pay for ...


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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roconnor wrote:
Jerry is basically saying there are two options permitted by NEC 210.11(C)(3) for bathrooms:

1. Install one 20A circuit to supply only the GFCI protected outlets for all the bathrooms


Robert,

No, but sort of. Install as many 20 amp circuits as you want, but if there is a bathroom receptacle on one, then no other outlets (except other bathroom receptacles) can be on them.

Quote:
2. Install multiple 20A dedicated circuits run to each bathroom, which can supply the GFCI outlet there as well as equipment rated less than 10A [per the exception].


Quote:
Even with one 20A circuit going to all the bathrooms, it is better practice to put GFCI outlets in each bathroom and then wire the upstream GFCI outlets through each outlet (connected to the ?line? terminals). Then a GFCI trip in one bathroom will not trip all the outlets ... ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)


I think a better way to say this "then wire the upstream GFCI outlets through each outlet" would be "then wire each GFCI device as non-feed through". "Through" each outlet makes that confusing.

Quote:
The second option is considered better practice, but a little more expensive to wire up. Plus any lights can be wired through the ?line? terminals of the GFCI outlet if needed


No, because that circuit is not allowed to have any other outlets, which includes no lighting outlets.

Quote:
or from a completely different circuit


Now that would be acceptable.


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: rpalac
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The code is very clear and simple regarding GFI’s.


If you are within the distance of 6' of a water source protect it.
(kitchen, bath, powder room, laundry area, bar sink, etc.)

If you are in an area that has possible water , protect the people using the receptical in the area. ( basement, garage, outside recepticles)

Contractors have to protect these areas by code. To put a $5 GFI in or a $0.39 recepticle, they choose cheap to increase there profits.

If you put a GFI in and wire to the feed side (a.k.a. line side), there is another set of terminals as the output side (a.k.a. load side), this would protect anything attached to that GFI down from there. So you feed one GFI recepticle to the line side and from the load side of the GFI you go to the next regalr $0.39 standard typicle receptacle, and then the next and so on. Now they are all protected by the first GFI. If any one trips by ground fault them they all go out down from and including the GFI feeding them.

Builders save a couple of cents by doing it that way. Another way is to put GFI breaker in the circuit panel and anything on that line is proptected by the GFI. The problem is ----convienience. If one you trip the GFI circuit and the receptacle is in another area you need to walk there to rest it. Typically it is better to put a GFI at each location just for convenience, but the code DOES NOT require that.

Now another issue that I'm not certain of here, and I would have difficulty thinking that a builder would over look is by code you must have a minimum of two seperate circuits in a kitchen area. All kitchen circuits must be wired with 12/2. (There is an exception for certain dedicated items, but all general wiring devices in the kitchen must be on 12/2). When you said that the kitchen GFI cotrolled aprox. 8 receptacles another issue came to mind. Is this all the receptacles it controlled? Was there any other couter receptacles on another circuit that was not affected in the kitchen(Ihope so)?If all the kitchen counter receptacles tripped when the GFI went off this sends up a red flag that there might not be two circuits in that kitchen. This is a code requirement. NEC Article 210.52-B (3)

The part regarding feeding mutiple bath rooms from one bath GFI is not allowed Nec Article 210.11-C(3) Bathroom Branch Circuits: In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at least one 20-Ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply the bathroom receptacle outlet(s). Such cicuits shall have no other outlets.
(Exception: Where the 20-Ampere circuit suppplies a single bathroom, outlets for other equipoment within the same bathroom shall be supplied in accordance with 210.23(A)


I urge you to read ALL of Article 210 in the NEC There are bits and pewices related throughout the article that bounce back and forth but the bottom line is some contractors don't keep up with the code. You use to be able to feed multiple baths or GFI locations. That has changed but you need to read to know....................

I hope that helps some what..../.

Bob
Excuse the type -o's ....I'm tierd and lazy...just got in from school and got get up at 5.

See ya
Bob


Originally Posted By: roconnor
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jpeck wrote:
Install as many 20 amp circuits as you want, but if there is a bathroom receptacle on one, then no other outlets (except other bathroom receptacles) can be on them.

We agree ... but I was talking about a single 20A circuit for all the bathroom outlets as option #1

jpeck wrote:
No, because that circuit is not allowed to have any other outlets, which includes no lighting outlets.

Actually there is disagreement on the code provisions for this, so I let it go for an existing install. I don't think it's a big deal anyway since you wouldn't have significant lighting load for a dedicated individual bathroom circuit. I will send you a PM so we can banter that one around without making Blaine's hair hurt again ... ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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Daniel


Short answer is that everything is correct except "The second was in the kitchen. It controlled about 8 outlets in the kitchen."

It "might meet code" however I would fail this due to 210.11(B).

I'll have to explain later. Got to go.

Mike P.


Originally Posted By: jpeck
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roconnor wrote:
jpeck wrote:
I think a better way to say this "then wire the upstream GFCI outlets through each outlet" would be "then wire each GFCI device as non-feed through".

Do you mean "then wire each GFCI as a feed through device (connected to the "line" terminal) ... as a GFCI wired as a non-feed through device (connected to the "load" terminal) would trip upstream outlets.


Just to clarify:

"Feed through" protects downstream receptacles.

"Non-feed through" does not protect anything except itself.

"Feed through" is just that, you connect the downstream receptacles off the load terminals, and the "feed" is "through" the GFCI device.

"Non-feed through" is where you connect the downstream receptacles off the line, the "feed" does not "go through" the GFCI device.

If I am reading your post above correctly, you have them mixed up backwards.


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: dfrend
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[quote=“eharden”]
Quote:

Daniel,
Did you reset the tripped GFCI? If so, I would be careful doing that. My thinking here is that when you reset something that you did not trip, it will increase your liability in the event that something should go wrong as a result of resetting. Members and visitors, is this a proper line of thinking?


The builder was present. He said they tripped the bathroom to test and never turned it on. The outside outlets were tripped to prevent contractors working on unfinished homes from stealing the electric.


--
Daniel R Frend
www.nachifoundation.org
The Home Inspector Store
www.homeinspectorstore.com

Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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rpalac wrote:
The code is very clear and simple regarding GFI's.

If you are within the distance of 6' of a water source protect it.
(kitchen, bath, powder room, laundry area, bar sink, etc.)


Bob the GFCI rules seem to change almost every cycle so it is tough to keep up with them. ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)

The only place you will find 6' in relation to GFCIs now is a "Wetbar Sink"

Any and all outlets in dwelling units for bathrooms, garages (with a few exceptions), outdoors with 1 exception), crawl spaces, unfinished basements, kitchen counters, and boathouses must have GFCI protection regardless of the distance from water.

The specifics can all be found in 210.8 of the 2002 NEC


--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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jpeck wrote:
"Feed through" protects downstream receptacles.
"Non-feed through" does not protect anything except itself.
If I am reading your post above correctly, you have them mixed up backwards.

Jerry ... Yes, they are backwards, so I'll fix that ... can't keep that straight, and should just stick to outlets connected on the "load side" of a GFCI are protected, and outlets connected on the "line side" are not.

Note that even though it meets the "code minimum", many consider the single circuit for the GFCI outlets in multiple bathrooms poor practice (either with a "master" GFCI, or individually protected), which was discussed in a few other topics. For a homeowner with kids, just two hair dryers tripping a breaker is not a good thing ... ![icon_rolleyes.gif](upload://iqxt7ABYC2TEBomNkCmZARIrQr6.gif)

And any dedicated 20A bathroom circuit can ONLY feed the outlet(s), light, and other equipment <10A (e.g. fan) for that individual bathroom. If the dedicated wiring continues outside that bathroom to anything else, it is an issue. Just wanted to be clear on that ...


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong