GFCI protection In kitchen

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21

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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opps! I didn’t see that. Sorry … icon_cool.gif Thanks

–
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant


www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm
22

Originally Posted By: staylor
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Joe,


The property in question is new construction. The code in effect at the time of permit issuance is the 2002 Edition of the N.E.C.


While I agree with you that it goes beyond the scope of a standard home inspection, I specialize in new construction and am quite comfortable in that arena. I had temporarily misplaced the relevant edition of the N.E.C. and did not want to cite the section from an earlier edition.

While I do not have enforcement powers in the private sector, I believe that it is a good practice to back up your findings with the relevant code sections.

Steve Taylor
Taylor Inspection Services, Inc.
Fernandina Beach, Florida

23

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


    Ground-fault circuit-interrupters


    Accessory buildings, dwelling units,
    210-8(a)(2)
    Basements, dwelling units, unfinished,
    210-8(a)(5)
    Bathtubs, hydromassage, 680-70
    Definition, Art. 100-A
    Deicing and snow-melting equipment,
    426-32
    Electrically operated pool covers,
    680-26(b)
    Fountains, 680-51(a)
    Garages, commercial, 511-10
    Garages, dwelling units, 210-8(a)(2)
    Permitted uses, 210-8, 215-9
    Personnel, protection for, 426-32
    Pipeline heating, 427-27
    Receptacles, 210-7(d), 210-8
    Bathrooms, in dwelling units,
    210-8(a)(1)
    Bathrooms in other than dwelling
    units, 210-8(b)(1)
    Boathouses, 555-3
    Construction sites, at, 305-6
    Existing, 210-7(d)
    Garages, in dwelling units,
    210-8(a)(2)
    Health care facilities, 517-20(a)
    Kitchens in dwelling units,
    210-8(a)(6)
    Marinas and boatyards, 555-3
    Mobile homes, 550-8(b), 550-23(e)
    Outdoors, dwelling units, 210-8(a)(3)
    Pools, 680-5, 680-6, 680-21, 680-31,
    680-62(a)
    Recreational vehicles, 551-40(c),
    551-41(c), 551-71
    Required, 210-8
    Wet bar sinks, 210-8(a)(7)


--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

24

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


If this a was installed on the 96 or later code I think it is counter space and requires GFCI. The sink doesn’t enter into this at all. You also need GFCI on a breakfast counter in the breakfast room.

25

Originally Posted By: Monte Lunde
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Steve


I think that I would contact your AHJ and see what the BO interpretation is on this matter.

--
Monte Lunde CCI, CCPM, CRI
Viking Construction Services Inc.

26

Originally Posted By: dbowers
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Steve -


Monte has good advice. It matters not what I, you or any of us call the desk or countertop - its what YOUR code guys call it. THen you will know how to write this.

27

Originally Posted By: bbadger
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Monte Lunde wrote:
Steve

I think that I would contact your AHJ and see what the BO interpretation is on this matter.


Interpretation of what, "Counter top"?

Sure if you want to ask the AHJ go for it.

But really Greg is right in the states I work in, any horizontal work surfaces in a kitchen require GFCI protection.

Islands, peninsulas, wall counters etc.

Monte Lunde wrote:
Greg
Your statement: Counter top is not defined in the NEC but most AHJs would say it was any horizontal work surface.

Under that definition a kitchen table, dining room table, desk, work bench would be classify as a counter top for NEC purposes, for they are all a horizontal work surface. If that is the case then they would all be required to be GFCI protected, which I know is not the case.


Have you ever seen a receptacle installed in kitchen table, dining room table or desk? ![icon_rolleyes.gif](upload://iqxt7ABYC2TEBomNkCmZARIrQr6.gif)

Greg did not say it was required to install outlets in those items.

--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN
28

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


From NEC ARTICLE 100 Definitions


Scope.

Quote:
.... It is not intended to include commonly defined general terms .......


Dictionary:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=countertop

![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)

--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm
29

Originally Posted By: Monte Lunde
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


bbadger


I was referring to the original question on the Countertop/ Desk that did not have GFCI protection. I still believe that the question "Why is there not a GFCI receptacle in this location?" should be ask to the AHJ.

Now that you and ikage have further defined Greg post on the definition of countertop. I see nothing wrong with this definition.

Greg never said " is was required to install outlets in those items" and I have never said Greg said those words, read all of the threads above.

No, I have never seen a receptacle in a kitchen table,dining room table or desk. But also, I have never seen receptacles installed in a countertop. I have seen receptacles installed above a countertop.

I have seen desks and kitchen tables that where located separately from the kitchen countertop in a kitchen area that used a receptacle on the wall that was not GFCI protected.

So in your opinion, GFCI protection applies to a custom desk that has the same top appearances as the kitchen countertops if it is located in a kitchen area.

The AHJ must have had a different opinion then yours for allowing this desk/countertop non GFCI receptacle to be installed. The AHJ might use this definition (Listed above from Joe) "A level surface on a cabinet or display case, as in a kitchen or department store" because of the DESK open space and it (countertop) is not being supported by a cabinet. Now if the countertop had a base cabinet supporting it, I agree that it should be GFCI protected.

--
Monte Lunde CCI, CCPM, CRI
Viking Construction Services Inc.

30

Originally Posted By: staylor
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


As the original poster, I can say that the countertop was supported on both ends by base cabinets with drawers and doors. It also has upper cabinets above the “desk”. This entire assembly was located within the kitchen, and yes, it did have the same countertop material as the rest of the countertops and the island. As I had temporarily misplaced my edition of the N.E.C. that is in effect for this jurisdiction at the time of permitting, I was seeking someone with that edition to verify that the sections had not changed from previous editions.

31

Originally Posted By: Monte Lunde
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Steve


Forget all my comments and questions on the countertop/ desk, for those comments where just trying to show that Codes are not just Black & White.

I also do NEW CONSTRUCTION Inspections on Commercial and Residential structures. I would write in my Report the lack of a GFCI in this area of the kitchen, with the NEC code section for backup. The NEC Edition that the local building permit applies.

I would also find out from the Code Inspector why this is accepted as installed. You might be doing the Code Inspector a favor because he missed this receptacle or he is going to tell you why it is accepted as installed.

His answer or actions will be included in your Final Report to your Client.

--
Monte Lunde CCI, CCPM, CRI
Viking Construction Services Inc.

32

Originally Posted By: Monte Lunde
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Here is a link from the electrical-contractor.net on this subject http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum2/HTML/001358.html .


Reading the posts on Kitchen Countertops GFCI from a electrical forum will still not give you a answer to what is a desk/ countertop. If the electrical trade can not agree, how can us HI agree.

The photo below was discussed

[ Image: http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/c/copy_of_kitchen.jpg ]

--
Monte Lunde CCI, CCPM, CRI
Viking Construction Services Inc.

33

Originally Posted By: bbadger
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


That picture was submitted by my buddy Ryan, an electrical inspector for Salt lake city Utah.


If I recall it was not a question of it being a counter but a question of where the kitchen area ends and the other area starts.

--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN

34

Originally Posted By: Monte Lunde
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


The topic was KITCHEN COUNTERTOP the question by your friend was "


Would you ask for GFCI protection for the area on the left (foreground)? "


See the above posted photo.

The answers where yes and no, is the area a kitchen yes and no, see what the building plans label the area as, talk to AHJ, countertop or desk, what is the area used for, ect ... ....

It is a very good educational question for HI and also Electricians. Read it over at ECN.

--
Monte Lunde CCI, CCPM, CRI
Viking Construction Services Inc.

35

Originally Posted By: bbadger
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Monte Lunde wrote:
It is a very good educational question for HI and also Electricians. Read it over at ECN.


I agree, come on over to ECN and check it out.

Be forewarned as many of you may know not all my electrical brothers have the same fondness for HIs as I do.

I feel you all provide a valuable service, it seems many other electricians feel you are stepping on their toes. ![icon_rolleyes.gif](upload://iqxt7ABYC2TEBomNkCmZARIrQr6.gif)

I never understood this attitude, at worst an HI points out something that is not a violation. This only embarrasses the HI.

Normally you find legitimate defects and point them out at a time when the seller is likely to spend the money to have the item fixed.

This adds to electrical safety and makes work for my fellow electricians.

Anyway come on over and take a look.

http://electrical-contractor.net/Forum

--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN
36

Originally Posted By: Monte Lunde
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Bob


Like you say"if the HI is wrong" he get's egg in is face. The electrician get's paid and the Seller has there answer to the Buyer. I do not mind getting egg in by face for a safety issue.

I like reading your posts, for I see that you know what you are writing about.

Looking forward to reading more of your posts, also ECN is a excellent site.

--
Monte Lunde CCI, CCPM, CRI
Viking Construction Services Inc.

37

Originally Posted By: bgentry
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


I am thinking that I read on this site somewhere that the countertop had to be at least 18" deep (front to back) before it was considered a work area in the kitchen and requiring a GFCI. As a matter of fact, I think it was part of the visual inspection aids. Does this ring a bell with anyone else?

–
Bradley S. Gentry


Superior Home Inspection, LLC


Harrisonburg, Charlottesville, &


Elkton, VA


www.superiorllc.net

38

Originally Posted By: bbadger
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Considering the NEC is the code requiring the GFCIs and there is no mention of how deep a counter has to be we are left guessing.


GFCI requirements are only increasing with each NEC cycle so it will soon become a moot point.

In the 2005 NEC the following changes have been made to the GFCI requirements


Laundry, utility and wet bar sinks, all outlets within 6' of a sink are required to be GFCI. This includes the outlet for the washing machine if it is within 6' of the sink.

Outdoor outlets in other than dwelling units that are accessible to the public need to be GFCI

Vending machine outlets now need to be GFCI protected.

Outlets for Boat hoists now need GFCI protection even if inside a boat house.

Rest assured there will be additions to the 2008 GFCI requirements.

It will not surprise me at all if eventually all outlets with few exceptions will require GFCI protection.

--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN