Originally Posted By: rray
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http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/more/ep5.jpg ]
http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/more/ep5.jpg ]
Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Looks like its missing the plastic cross over bar from the neutral to the ground terminal bars. Looks like they removed the metal one and did not install the plastic one - as is required.
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Jerry Peck
South Florida
Originally Posted By: rray
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What is it and what does it do?
Originally Posted By: jpeck
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[ Image: plastic cross over bar installed ]
I forgot 'what does it do'?
The neutral and ground terminal bars are only held in place with plastic clips, these can be rotated out of those clips by the conductors pushing on the terminal bars (I've seen this happen). This plastic bar helps to stabilize and hold those two terminal bars in place, while isolating the neutral terminal bar from the ground terminal bar.
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Jerry Peck
South Florida
Originally Posted By: rray
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Our panel is full, Jerry. Yours is not. Does that make a difference? I don’t see how such a bar could be installed in our panel.
This is only the second time I've found such a beautiful panel. It made me cry.
Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Being full only makes it worse (more conductors pushing against the terminal bars).
[ Image: closer view of your panel ]
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Jerry Peck
South Florida
Originally Posted By: dbozek
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“helps to stabilize the busses”
????????
If that was the case why not put them above and below.....why just below? Never heard of such a thing!
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You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they should and could do for themselves. Abraham Lincoln
Originally Posted By: dbozek
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Hmmm that could be one of my panels
back when I was a californian…interesting –
You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they should and could do for themselves. Abraham Lincoln
Originally Posted By: Ryan Jackson
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I’m with Jerry on this one. When you read the literature that comes with a Siemens panelboard it discusses this (or at least it used to).
Great catch Jerry 
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Ryan Jackson, Salt Lake City
Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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The 220 breaker on the left side concerns me. Two black wires?
Mike P.
Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Go to this thread and scroll about halfway down. You will find where I posted these panels with the cross over bar, without it, and with the plastic bar.
Ryan, yes, these can have the metal cross over bar removed to allow the left side to be used as the ground terminal side, and yes, the plastic bar needs to be installed. You are correct in that it tells you that right on the label.
I bet I've only seen about 2-3 which had the plastic bar installed after removing the metal one. I'm talking about 2-3 out of hundreds of panels with the metal cross over bar removed.
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Jerry Peck
South Florida
Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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Is this panel ‘bonded’?
I do not see it.
Mike P.
Originally Posted By: Ryan Jackson
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Mike : Look under circuit 15.
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Ryan Jackson, Salt Lake City
Originally Posted By: rray
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This is a Cutler-Hammer panel.
I'm not convinced of anything wrong, yet, that I, as a generalist home inspector, would write up.
I look forward to some more opinions and posts and, most specifically, the logic or theory behind Jerry's opinion (based on code, probably) that the bar needs to be there.
I take pictures of all electric panel, inside and out, and I've gone through a ton of those pictures today looking for this little bar. Hasn't shown up on any panel yet. That, of course, doesn't mean that it is either wrong or right. But Jerry's picture is the first time I have ever seen this little bar. I've even been looking through my home inspection books (electrical section) and my electrical books and haven't found it yet. If there's text somewhere in a book, I'd love to read it.
At this point, I believe it is one of those electric code issues that is beyond the scope of my generalist home inspector practice. I still can be convinced otherwise, and, believe it or not, I do change my mind occasionally.
Originally Posted By: dbozek
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Mike…
2 black wires on a 220 volt breaker?
First if this is a house....it is 240 volt single phase
What is wrong with two black wires on this breaker.....please explain?
Just cuz one wire is black and the other one is not red does not mean something is wrong.....I think you are "assuming" again Mike. Not a good thing to assume anything with electrical.
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You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they should and could do for themselves. Abraham Lincoln
Originally Posted By: dbozek
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Russ
Ima lookin and ima not findin anything that states this little bar is required by code. Yes it is legal to wire the grounds and the neutrals separately as in this panel, provided the bar is removed. Certain manufacturers may require this bar be there, and if that is the case...why don't they include the widget in there package? I've probably installed 1000 panels or more in my lifetime as a sparky and I have yet to see such. Of course my panel of choice is SqD and they do not provide such a bar for anything.
Overall the sparky that did this panel has his act together. A fine job and I see not a thing wrong with it.
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You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they should and could do for themselves. Abraham Lincoln
Originally Posted By: jpeck
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| dbozek wrote: |
| Russ
Ima lookin and ima not findin anything that states this little bar is required by code. |
Try 110-3(B).
It IS required by the manufacture.
It IS allowable to remove the metal cross over bar which ties the neutral terminal bar to the OTHER neutral terminal bar, making the other one into a GROUND terminal bar.
Like adding extra ground terminal bar kits to the pre-drilled holes in the back of the enclosure, you must purchase them separately.
Think of it this way.
When you remove too many breaker twist outs, does the manufacturer provide the closure plugs with the enclosure to you can close them all back up? No. You remove more than you need and it is up to you to go out and get (or keep them with you) the breaker opening closure plugs. When you remove the metal cross over bar, it is up to you to go out and get (or keep them with you) a plastic cross over bar.
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Jerry Peck
South Florida
Originally Posted By: Ryan Jackson
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| jpeck wrote: | ||
Try 110-3(B). It IS required by the manufacture. |
Jerry: 110.3(B) applies only to instructions included in the listing and labeling of a product. I wouldn't think that the plastic bar is a listing requirement (but it might be), and therefore the NEC would not address it.
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Ryan Jackson, Salt Lake City
Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
| Ryan Jackson wrote: |
| Jerry: 110.3(B) applies only to instructions included in the listing and labeling of a product. I wouldn't think that the plastic bar is a listing requirement (but it might be), and therefore the NEC would not address it. |
I've always been told that whatever is on the label is part of the labeling.  (And it is on the label as 'how to use and install' the product.)
And I've been told that the manufacturers installation instructions (the labeling) is the way the product was installed for testing, listing, and labeling.
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Jerry Peck
South Florida
Originally Posted By: rray
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I will agree that the manufacturer’s instructions override any codes, but I don’t see any installation instructions or manufacturer’s labeling in the picture I posted. Where is everyone getting these instructions at? I visited Cutler-Hammer.com and didn’t find anything, but, quite frankly, I may not know what I’m looking for–there were a lot of esoteric electrical terms over there.
I'm still waiting for a response as to what installing the plastic one does. I understand what removing the metal one does.
This was a "subpanel" in a condominium tower. The meter and service disconnect were in the basement.