Electrical Contractor response

Originally Posted By: jpope
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Quote:
August 13, 2004

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Newhall, California

Attention: XXXXXXXXX

Subject: Condominium Electrical Service inspection as per the following codes

Code No. 250
Code No. 250.1
Code No. 250.27

#1 Grounding and neutral conductors code # 250

#2 (NEC) National Electrical Code Section 110-12 Integrity of Electrical equipment

The lighting panel was inspected and found to be contaminated with plaster inside of the enclosure. This is consistent with production work. When this work was done the electrical current carrying components are masked off. However, front cover was removed and each circuit breaker also disconnected and individually inspected for burnished or plaster contamination - other defects. The circuit breakers were opened and closed several times to insure proper operations and found in good working order.

Main bus bar surface contacts were inspected and found in good working conditions. The grounded service conductor coming from the utility transformer is grounded in there side and it should be grounded in the neutral bus bar in accordance with (NEC) code 250.1

Recommendations:
Install a main bonding jumper bare copper wire min. # 6 from the electrical enclosure to the equipment grounding bus bonded as per code Exhibit 250.1 a typical grounding system for a single ?phase 3 wire service


Truly yours,

XXXXXXXXXXXXX
Electrical Engineer and Supervisor
XXXXXXXX Industries, Inc.
Electrical Contractors



--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738

Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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I will not comment on the contamination as I did not see it in person… OK it looks real bad. icon_wink.gif


This panel certainly does not contain the service disconnect therefore putting a bonding jumper in place would be a direct violation of 250.24(A)(5) or 250.142(B)

Quote:
250.24(A)(5) Load-Side Grounding Connections. A grounding connection shall not be made to any grounded circuit conductor on the load side of the service disconnecting means except as otherwise permitted in this article.



Quote:
250.142(B) Load-Side Equipment. Except as permitted in 250.30(A)(1) and 250.32(B), a grounded circuit conductor shall not be used for grounding non?current-carrying metal parts of equipment on the load side of the service disconnecting means or on the load side of a separately derived system disconnecting means or the overcurrent devices for a separately derived system not having a main disconnecting means.


Which one of these would actually be violated is tough to tell from a picture, most likely both would be violated.

Bob


--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

Originally Posted By: rpalac
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Truly Yours,




(not the best choice of words there oh, Mr. Powder Puff ![icon_redface.gif](upload://f7DX2EWhmUfsDapWaYT3oJHMCj1.gif) )

I hope you don't get to many dates from the contractor/builder.


I can't help it, you just got me rolling in laughter over here.


Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley
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I have a question from WAY out in left field. The wiring at the neutral buss looks like it is in contact with the panel. Would that in effect bond the bar to the panel? Something that should be called out in a panel without a disconnect?


Sorry for the dumb question.


Originally Posted By: rpalac
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if it is the primary panel the nuetrals and grounds can be together. ( They are bonded and have the same diffence of potential and resistance)


If it is a sub pannel they can not be bonded.

Regarding the last post of neutral shorting to the can.
The neutrals are insulated on the wire by the white insulation and from the can by a cardboard insulator.


Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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rpalac wrote:
if it is the primary panel the nuetrals and grounds can be together. ( They are bonded and have the same diffence of potential and resistance)


There is no such thing as a 'primary' panel, the only place you can bond neutrals and grounds together is at the service disconnect.

This panel does not have the service disconnect in it.

Blaine not a stupid question at all, in this panel there is a cheep insulator that keep the wires from hitting the side of the can, not quite cardboard but darn close.

Bob


--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Bob Badger wrote:
There is no such thing as a 'primary' panel, the only place you can bond neutrals and grounds together is at the service disconnect.


Not competing on details, but the neutral is bonded to ground at the service equipment, which includes the service disconnect. ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: jstevens
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hi guys just testing


Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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jpeck wrote:
Not competing on details, but the neutral is bonded to ground at the service equipment, which includes the service disconnect. ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)


Actually yes, you are

Quote:
250.28 Main Bonding Jumper.
For a grounded system, an unspliced main bonding jumper shall be used to connect the equipment grounding conductor(s) and the service-disconnect enclosure to the grounded conductor of the system within the enclosure for each service disconnect.


I do not see service equipment, even in the less restrictive requirements for the GEC

Quote:
250.24 Grounding Service-Supplied Alternating-Current Systems.

(1) General. The connection shall be made at any accessible point from the load end of the service drop or service lateral to and including the terminal or bus to which the grounded service conductor is connected at the service disconnecting means.



Maybe you are reading from a different book?

As you are such a stickler for right words with everyone on this forum why use words that the NEC does not for this particular section(s)?

Bob


--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

Originally Posted By: rpalac
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At least sign off with …


Yours truly…


or Sweet cakes forever…


Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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rpalac wrote:
At least sign off with .......
Yours truly.....
or Sweet cakes forever.......


![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)

OK

Actually I missed Jerry when he was on vacation.

Much more fun to spar with a knowledgeable opponent.

Bob

Edit I forgot

Love and kisses, Bob ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)


--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

Originally Posted By: rpalac
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To my esteemed Dear Colleugue, Bob


Hey sweet lips your wisdom is always looked foward too.

Respectfully,
up yours
Bob P.

(now I feel that my wife is going to start wondering what the hell am I talking about)


hahahaha

gotta go out to diner now,
see you guy's later


Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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icon_lol.gif icon_lol.gif icon_lol.gif


Seriously have a good night, Bob


--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

Originally Posted By: jpope
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Okay, I’m back. I see we’re having fun icon_cool.gif


So when I go back for the re-inspect, Sunday, I tell the seller that the Electrical Engineer who inspected this panel is mistaken and that I (as an HI) am correct?

Sounds like I may be going to this gun fight armed with a knife


--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738

Originally Posted By: tallen
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A gun with no bullets== you win icon_biggrin.gif


Happy hunting


--
I have put the past behind me,
where , however, it now sits, making rude remarks.

www.whiteglovehomeinspections.net

30 Oct 2003-- 29 Nov2005

Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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I would hijack Bob Badger’s verbiage, and provide it to the client and the engineer. Tell the engineer that you plan on contacting the local AHJ for clarification on the matter (get your client’s permission first)


I can almost guarantee that this EE will back off. Explain that you are not a code official, but you feel that the situation is unacceptable, and you ran the situation past some licensed electricians. They concurred with your opinion.

The EE is the one goung to the gunfight with the knife, IMO


--
Joe Farsetta

Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."

Originally Posted By: jpope
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Well, here is the “fix” that was prescribed by the EE icon_confused.gif I told the buyer that it was not correct and gave him Bob B’s phone number








Let the games begin


--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738

Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Get the local AHJ’s opinion. Flag the EE with the NEC rules. Even with some of the crap I’ve seen around these parts, it’s rare that I see an electrician-installed or maintained sub panel with neutrals and grounds bonded.


What an idiot...


--
Joe Farsetta

Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."

Originally Posted By: Brian A. Goodman
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It’s said there should be no bond here, but isn’t that only because the panel is incorrectly wired to begin with? If my understanding is correct there should be seperate bars for the grounding conductors (floating) and the equipment grounds. Isn’t the enclosure then bonded at the equipment ground bar for the usual safety reasons? Bob? Jerry?


Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Brian A. Goodman wrote:
It's said there should be no bond here, but isn't that only because the panel is incorrectly wired to begin with?


I'm not understanding what you mean by " ... because the panel is incorrectly wired to begin with?" It was incorrectly wired to begin with, but to affect bonding between neutral and ground ... this would have to have had a service disconnect in it, and it does not.

Quote:
If my understanding is correct there should be seperate bars for the grounding conductors (floating)


I think you mean 'grounded conductors' (or neutrals when used as neutrals).

Quote:
and the equipment grounds. Isn't the enclosure then bonded at the equipment ground bar for the usual safety reasons? Bob? Jerry?


Yes (the enclosure is required to be bonded to the equipment grounds), but that is the neutral bar, not the equipment ground bar (okay, THAT terminal bar IS both, but it should NOT BE both).

All that electrician did (that I can see) is to make an incorrectly wired panel even more incorrectly wired. That panel needs to be replaced (due to contamination in it). IF, for some reason, it is not going to be replaced, some KNOWLEDGEABLE and QUALIFIED electrician needs to go through the panel and straighten it all up correctly (I see he did not make any attempts to correct any of the other things in that panel).


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida