Hi Ladies and Gents!
Found another high efficiency/direct vent furnace in unconditioned attic.
I read Payne’s instruction manual.
Only thing it says is you need to winterize if unit turned off for extended period of time.
Issues I see-
Freezing inside unit
Freezing condensation line (and pump in this case)
Saw a few posts that said to add heat tape but risk is tape failure or power failure.
My thought is to write it up as - “Risk of freezing” and contact qualified specialist.
From owners manual UNIT AND PROPERTY DAMAGE HAZARD Failure to follow this caution may result in unit component or property damage. If the furnace is installed in an unconditioned space where the ambient temperatures may be 32° F (0° C) or lower, freeze protection measures must be taken to prevent minor property or product damage. Since the furnace uses a condensing heat exchanger, some water will accumulate in the unit as a result of the heat transfer process. Therefore, once it has been operated, it cannot be turned off and left off for an extended period of time when temperatures will reach 32°F (0°C) or lower unless winterized. Follow these procedures to winterize your furnace:
Risk of component or property damage per manufacturer’s installation instructions. Recommend correction as may be needed by qualified HVAC professional.
Flowing water is hard to freeze. Pumps internal mechanism makes them freeze-resistant.
I am not saying these systems never freeze, but the manual is pretty straightforward. Unless you see it installed incorrectly, you are just making up problems that have not happened yet.
The community here in cold climates may have better insight. I am reacting to what is presented.
thx- appreciate it.
If there was no pump- just condensate line/pitched>>>you would still write it up correct?
Im actually trying to educate myself> how is it supposed to be set up?
I read “insulation”, “pitch of condensate line”, “heat tape”’
If it was my attic- not sure i would want the risk
Only thing i can think is if condensate drain has very short run/ directly drains under unit into house drain pipe and insulate.
Edit: I missed the *"it cannot be turned off and left off for an extended period of time” part of the manufacturer’s info. So, I would not comment on it.
Because:
Im not looking to copy and paste anything from manuals.
I am looking to educate myself…to understand:
is it ok to install high efficiency with condensate in unconditioned space?
if yes- how should it be done correctly?
I know i take a beating from others since my job is to just write it up- potential damage due to freezing…refer to qualified specialist…
That is what i will do- but i still like to understand #1 and #2 especially since once i did some research it seems there is varying opinions…
I should have clarified. Owner’s manuals and installation manuals are full of useful information. Unless I see a defect or faulty installation or have practical observed experience, I wouldn’t have much to say in my report.
And the small amount of water is not a concern of the manufacturer unless the system is to be shut down for an extended period of time.
One, I was responding to Larry. Two, I’m afraid I have to disagree with everything you just said because installing this equipment in an unconditioned space is not limited. The manual does provide direction if the owner shuts down the equipment for an extended period of time.
You can put that in your report, but where does this begin and end with appliances?
And IMO… is shut down during or just prior to the Cold season, as once the system is shut down, there is nothing to introduce condensate that will freeze.
Any leftover condensate in the system will evaporate and no longer be an issue.
Winterizing a home by a qualified professional should/will include all systems that could be affected.
Typically, the only homes I see in Minnesota that (may) not be winterized, are those Vacant / For Sale homes that have been unoccupied for a long period of time, and the Seller is too cheap to maintain the home, as they have already moved on to their next!
#1 There is a removable cap on the condensate drain just above the P Trap. Homeowner can put RV antifreeze, windshield washer fluid, Windex or anything that doesn’t freeze in there.
If everything is installed correctly, this is down hill from anything condensate.
#2 The pump is not hard piped. Just remove the pump and dump it out. Or add antifreeze.
#3 There is no sufficient condensate to fill any of the drain lines (if properly installed), to a point it will freeze and break, P Trap excluded. Freezing of this small amount of water will cause no damage.
Who is going to shut down a Furnace/AC for winter without winterizing the entire house? Are you implying we must report this as a significant deficiency because there are stupid people in this world?
If this unit is older than one year, Why is it not broken now?
1. Definitions and Scope
1.1. A home inspection is a non-invasive, visual examination of the accessible areas of a residential property (as delineated below), performed for a fee, which is designed to identify defects within specific systems and components defined by these Standards that are both observed and deemed material by the inspector. The scope of work may be modified by the Client and Inspector prior to the inspection process.
The home inspection is based on the observations made on the date of the inspection, and not a prediction of future conditions (INACHI SOP).
It was mentioned that other units are installed like this have been found. Contractors are not going to keep doing this if it is damaging equipment. They are required to fix the problem under their warranty, at their cost, for at least 1 yr.
Like any other attic mounted appliance.
Serial Number.
Model number.
Installation anomalies, if any.
That gas fired high efficiency condensing furnace looks professionally installed and plumbed.
Seeing there is a safety pan to catch liquids, and there is no insulation in the attic yet the duct work is insulated I would not note anything except for the model and serial numbers.
A condensate pump in an attic? That doesn’t make sense. Here in Alabama, if the unit is in the attic then the condensate pipe should naturally drain to the exterior; no need for a pump, unless your attic is below grade. Am I missing something?
Thanks for replying in detail- i appreciate it.
Some additional info-
Furnace is brand new/house is a flip (has not gone through freezing season yet)
Unit will not be shut down- will be primary heat for home over winter so winterization procedure won’t apply since unit will not sit idle
It seems condensate amount can be gallons in 24hr period… (Furnace Condensate & New D.O.E. Rules – Part 2 | York Central Tech Talk)
Honestly- I am just really trying to understand if it is really a freeze risk and if not why
Manual does not address condensate line in freezing environment at all.
Contractors are all over the place- some say no issue, some say never install condensate pump, some say heat tape…etc. I have many rentals and asked my HVAC guy- he says never just pipe/pitch.
Not trying to beat a dead horse but when i call out something i really like to understand why.
removing pump sounds logical but still wonder how it wont freeze with end of pipe exposed in cold/gutter
