Originally Posted By: bwiley This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Okay, I haven’t found this before, ever, and couldn’t come up with a reason for it. At yesterday afternoons inspection, one of the 15 amp circuit breakers in a Square D QO panel was double tapped with both a black and a white wire. The breaker was labeled “lighting” . I did not find any issues with any outlets in the home, and all lights and switches worked properly. The wires ran right out the top of the panel, and weren’t traceable. The ground went to the ground buss.
Any Ideas??
Blaine
PS My camera went dead, so I can't provide a picture.
Originally Posted By: jmyers This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Blaine,
If it was servicing a 2 pole outlet, you can bet it is illegal. Otherwise it may have been servicing a multi wire circuit and depending on the load it may be ok.
Originally Posted By: psabados This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Joe
I can't see this in my mind? What kind of multi-wire circuit could this power? Can't be 220 its on the same phase. No neutral on the circuit with power returning on the ground. Wouldn't this charge or electrify the panel box?
Doesn't that circuit have to be returning or sharing a neutral from another circuit on the same phase? 
Originally Posted By: psabados This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Good call
Qustion, was this the original panel or possible upgrade? Or, a house with a recent addition.
The only thing I can think of, that might be feasible, is that they somehow lost the hot leg of the circuit (wire break or cut, meltdown) and decided that the only way to power up was to remove the neutral and make it hot as a temp. fix.
Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Paul,
This house was only 6 years old, original panel,no additions to the home except an inground sprinkler system, which was plugged into and outlet which was mounted to the side of the panel and wired properly. The panel had an electric company override box on the water heater circuit, and a surge protector wired in properly. The white wire was neatly place on the opposite side of the terminal from the black. I originally thought the wire was for the surge protector, but it wasn't.
Originally Posted By: Dennis Bozek This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Blaine,
Well first off....the white wire being used as a hot wire is in violation of the code. (refer to 310-12c and read over 310-11 as well) Nothing will tick off a sparky more than to see a white wire used as a hot! Why? A white wire is commonly a neutral wire and the only way one can get a good shock off that wire is if he touches it when it is not attached to another, thus completing the circuit through his body. However, normally one can handle a white wire without fear of shock unless of course someone tied it into a breaker someplace and did not properly mark it as a HOT wire.
Sometimes on a 220 circuit a white and black wire will be used but again it must have the proper color to be used as a hot. White and gray are neutral or return wires. Green is ground. Any other color is acceptable for a hot wire, however, in a house I would prefer to see red, black or blue period. Use of brown, orange or yellow wires for hots and gray wires for neutral is commonly used on 480 volt circuits. Although there is never 480 volts in a house, these colors should not be used. The wire color for a 240 volt single phase is typically red and black for the hot, white for the neutral and green for the ground.
FLAG it for improper color coding of the wire and then recommend that a licensed sparky investigates it and/or repairs it.
-- This information has been edited and reviewed for errors by your favorite resident sparky.
Originally Posted By: jfarsetta This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Quote:
Well first off....the white wire being used as a hot wire is in violation of the code. (refer to 310-12c and read over 310-11 as well) Nothing will tick off a sparky more than to see a white wire used as a hot!
Dont you simply need to stripe the white wire with a black designation (like black tape) at the breaker and far end to designate it as current carrying (hot)? Been done that way forever around here. I believe the NEC allows it. The electricians are the ones doing this...
-- Joe Farsetta
Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."
Originally Posted By: Dave Derie This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Hey guys
new to the board. I've been an electrician for 18 years, from what's described its pretty vague to give a definite opinion. Its something a qualified electrician should investigate.
double tapping and double lugging are pretty much a no no in most applications and manufactures specs. Square D allows double tapping on their breakers for surge protectors and similar applications. Not for adding more items to a circuit.
I am the first to say that I am not a expert or have all the knowledge or every manufactures specs. It should state what is allowed for that particular application in side the panel. If its not stated to allow double lugging or tapping on the specs then its wrong according to code. In my experience the manufactures specs superceed the code though with most Jurisdictions.
Most manufactures allow it for grounds only. Never current carrying conductors I.E. hots and neutrals
On the post of sharing a neutral on multiwire circuits. Each hot MUST be on a separate phase. If not then you will have a unbalanced load on the neutral and have the potential to overload it. Typically a 3 wire is used for this type of installation and will have a red and black wire. Be watchful of Twin breakers since they share the same phase. This is where is usually run into a phasing problem.
Just want to say that I have done most my work in the west. California and Nevada so I am only use to how its done around here. So what I say may not be how its done in other parts of the country.
Originally Posted By: Dennis Bozek This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Well Joe you gotta remember the NEC is the bare bones as far as code goes. The municipalities take them bare bones and add from there. It’s like this new stuff going on here. In some cities if I cannot verify that I have 25 ohms or less from the ground rod they make me put in two ground rods. Go figure. I say to them aren’t you guys the one who is supposed to buy the sophisicated testing equipment to verify that and they respond…nope all we do is inspect.
– This information has been edited and reviewed for errors by your favorite resident sparky.
The breaker was labeled “lighting” . I did not find any issues with any outlets in the home, and all lights and switches worked properly. The wires ran right out the top of the panel, and weren’t traceable. The ground went to the ground buss.
Well Joe you gotta remember the NEC is the bare bones as far as code goes. The municipalities take them bare bones and add from there. It’s like this new stuff going on here. In some cities if I cannot verify that I have 25 ohms or less from the ground rod they make me put in two ground rods. Go figure. I say to them aren’t you guys the one who is supposed to buy the sophisicated testing equipment to verify that and they respond…nope all we do is inspect.