Thanks. that was only a couple of many, many photos of burned, charred, welded and missing wiring. Ive even opened up a furnace to find the whole heater element assembly missing. Found it later out in the detached garage shed…fried. Now if I had written up the furnace as simply not working I am certain the HVAC mechanic would have said “No sh*t Sherlock” it is missing" and told the client I was an idiot.
Test, Adjust & Balance (TAB) is the term used for setting up and commisioning commercial, institutional and industrial HVAC equipment. Requires a fair amount of training/experience to be a good technician. See:
Brian in the real world TAB is the air distribution box with rubber bladder that the thermostat controls the amount of tempered air flow into the commercial and industrial building (pneumatic controls)
So a lot of buildings get “balanced” in motel rooms there also!!! That was what I heard in my short foray into the field in 1990-92.
We’re talking about home inspection standards here, not the standards a qualified tech might be held to.
Sorry Kenton you can not convince me that that the standards for Hi’s are correct when all is required is to operate the unit from the thermostat that is BS we should be required to inspect the unit for deficiencys that are visible with the covers removed such as burnt wires. A little knowledge goes a long way there are many many things overlooked on a visual inspection by an Hi simply because of lack of knowledge about this equipment
Most of us like having more knowledge, Charlie. If we require more for HVAC, then we have to require more for all the other home systems too. Inspectors shouldn’t take on liability for ensuring that wiring in electrical furnaces has no deficiencies. Thats a tech’s job. If you’re qualified, more power to you, but that level of technical expertise and its accompanyinjg liabilty lies beyond the scope of a general home inspection.
I would have to say if one does not know what a burnt wire looks like Lowes is always hiring. I still stand on the thought performs as intended and you can not tell from the thermostat if a electrical furnace is performing as intended.
I think this can be a qualitative assessment rather than quantitative[FONT=Tahoma][size=2]. Like my suggestion to look at the electric meter, all we need to know is that “something significant” actually occurred. It’s not critical that the exact number of Amps are measured. Most heater banks in residential heat pumps/electric furnaces are 5 kW and 7.5 kW banks. Either one draws a significant amount of power. In South Carolina, Joe will likely find that one stage will pull about 20 amps and when the second stage kicks in it will jump to 40 amps. The heater banks are generally on their own circuit so there’s no confusion about the amperage being drawn by the heat pump.
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Kenton, weren’t you involved in the development of the NACHI HVAC training?
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This is not true. Most states have requirements that electric panels be opened. Most HVAC service panel’s are much easier to open an electric service panel’s. They are also much safer! We are not talking about HVAC evaluation of performance, simply whether it runs or not and that visual observation does not detect any adverse conditions such as burnt wires.
There are a dozen things that you can do with an HVAC system visually that can determine if it is functioning properly “without any tools”. It’s just a matter of wanting to learn. You don’t need to know the psychometric properties of air or be certified by the EPA to touch refrigerant. You only need to observe. If you know what you’re looking at, you can determine that it’s broken and leave the rest of the diagnosis up to the HVAC technicians.
The HVAC equipment is the single most costly appliance in the house. It is the most improperly installed appliance in existence! It is the device that keeps your client comfortable and it is probably the single most cause for lawsuits and legal complaints in our industry. It is also a primary cause of mold issues and those types of lawsuits.
Though my state law says HVAC inspection is conducted by turning on the thermostat in the mode for the current season, I also believe that this is grossly insufficient. I would venture to guess that the reason there are not more requirements is because the people making the laws also do not understand HVAC and don’t know what to ask for.
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The average citizen (and Home Inspector) thinks HVAC is magic. They do not have even a fundamental understanding of how the HVAC process works. There have been numerous posts here over the years I have seen a member showing this lack of the basics. As David said, it is probably the most expensive single system in the home, most neglected by the owners and most poorly installed in the entire home envelope. On average, 85% of all HVAC trouble calls are going to electrical in nature, while the most common charge is for refrigerant. There are many good HVAC techs in the field but there are just as many who either do not give a flip or just do not know their business. I do not think anyone is saying the HI needs to “troubleshoot” the problem but should at least know what they are looking at, so they are not making patently wrong statements about the system or inconclusive and vague comments. Most think taking a temp split is an accurate indication of the system performance. Many do not know the differences or similarities between an electric furnace and a heat pump. Even less is understood about gas furnaces. Opening up the front of a cabinet is simply doing the visual inspection of the interior components just like when opening an electrical panel. I find many significant discrepancies during this phase of my visual inspection. If you look at one of the above photos you can see where there is a hole burned through the steel from an arcing cable. That is pretty important to point out.
Do you open up the furnaces that have been taped with foil tape that comes apart when you try to remove it?
I ask because that is where I draw the line. I’m not retaping the furnace or air handler. Most are in the garge, thus the tape.
When I can open them I do, and it would be silly to not at least look at the wiring, and is very smart to measure amp draw. I’ve gotten many recommendations simply because I found one out of three strip heaters to be nonfunctional.
Blaine,
I think that falls inside of not being readily accessible. I have on occasion if the tape is already trashed but then I carry a roll of code tape in my truck too. It is easy to recognized code tape as it will have writing or print on it. The other metal foil tape is NOT code tape but you will often find it used in place of it because it is about half the price. A roll of code tape is about $12 if you go to HD or Lowes, It is less at a Hvac wholesale supply house like Graingers or Johnstone. Lots of times when there is code tape it is because the unit is old or a lot of work has been done on it. Occasionally I find one with the wrong access panel and they use tape to hold it shut. I just write what I see and find, recommend servicing and or evaluation by a license HVAC contractor. I rarely find a system that does not need cleaning or servicing. People just abuse the snot out of the systems to neglect or non or using cheap filtering.
I have rolls of code tape too, but I agree that it becomes inaccessible when taped. When I lived in VA, we called the stuff without writing “West Virginia Chrome”. :D:D:D
LOL, good name for it. Between that and reflective tape some cars would fall completely apart. Pull in behind them at your own peril as things “be” fallin off da car.
That is what it is all about glad to see you guys keeping this thread alive without me been working for a change:D:D:D:D
I inspected a heat pump yesterday 1-1/2 ton add on for a attic conversion and had a small strip heater wired to come on with the compressor I was able to determine this by just taking the supply air temp it was reading above 115 degrees to hot for a heat pump alone. What would you tell your client in this situation.
I’ve given this more thought. Today, I did 3 homes, all with heat pumps. The covers to the furnace and blower were secured with bolts. I did not remove them. It would have taken 30 minutes just to take the panel off and reinstall it.
The SOP in my state says we are to "open readily openable access panels provided by the manufacturer or installer for routine homeowner maintenance.
What can I say besides do two inspections instead of 3 take more time and raise your rates for what you do. BTW takes me less than 30 seconds to remove four screws with MR black and decker;-)
Charley,
I would recommend that they have the unit wired correctly, or have the thermostat checked because the strip heaters should only come on when the thermo senses a 2 degree difference between the temp and the set point. I would then explain that the electric heaters make the electric meter spin like a flying saucer out of control! BTW, I found this day before yesterday! Temp was 72, set was 73, supply was 129. Wow, that heat pump is working great!! :shock::roll::D:D:D:D:D
Joe,
I carry a full set of nut drivers and that will open just about any furnace. It takes no longer to open a furnace cover that isn’t taped than it does to open an electric panel, and it is no more hazardous to the inspector. Trust me, if you find issues in the electric compartment of the furnace you will gain inspections because you are finding things that most inspectors can’t or won’t do, or don’t know how to do. Most SOP are written the same way as your state’s. You aren’t required to remove the covers, but you aren’t prohibited either. 
Joe, I just can’t believe that you do your entire inspections of the minimum standards set by state law[FONT=Tahoma][size=2]!
[/size][/FONT]Taking a look at your website this is the first thing I saw[FONT=Tahoma][size=2]:“[FONT=Times New Roman][size=4]All inspections meet or exceed the SC and NC Standards of Practice and NACHI Standards of Practice.[/size][/FONT][/size][/FONT]”
But here you’re telling us that you can’t take out two 5/16 screws to access the service panel[FONT=Tahoma][size=2]? The reason; because it takes too long?[/size][/FONT]
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I also see that you have additional services for additional fees. How about doing like the rest of us and charge more and do more? I justify upfront to my client is $75 surcharge to take those two 5/16 screws and “just take a look”!
[/size][/FONT]My state law is the same as yours[FONT=Tahoma][size=2].
When a client calls asking about inspections and we get around to fees, I asked them if they’re interested in knowing about their HVAC equipment. 99% of the time the answer is “but of course”! I go onto advise them that the state standard is to simply turn on the equipment from the thermostat for the season in which the inspection takes place. I advised them that the equipment is the most expensive appliance, most likely defective and most important “it keeps them comfortable”. I asked them if they would like to invest another $75 and have this equipment evaluated beyond turning on the thermostat and feeling the air coming out of the register “like all the other home inspectors do”.
[/size][/FONT]I don’t want to turn this into a marketing class or a HVAC evaluation class but this is child’s play[FONT=Tahoma][size=2]! You want to make more money. You want to keep more money. You want less customer complaints.[/size][/FONT]
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[/size][/FONT]There are good reasons for not walking on a roof[FONT=Tahoma][size=2], crawling through a 12 x 12" crawlspace hole, performing a trapeze act across the trusses in an attic, but I’m having trouble seeing a good reason not to open up a service panel which is technically “readily accessible” (or at least it is required to be accessible by building code)! Just because it takes a tool to remove a screw does not really mean it is not readily accessible even though that’s the way the state laws are written.
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