I Believe that Fuses are Better!

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



My personal opinion follows:


I believe that fuses are far superior for protection against an overcurrent condition. Some types of circuit breakers fail and we have been made aware that they have a history that may not be the safest protection.

Terms Defined:

Overcurrent.

Any current in excess of the rated current of equipment or the ampacity of a conductor.

It may result from overload, short circuit, or ground fault.

FPN: A current in excess of rating may be accommodated by certain equipment and conductors for a given set of conditions. Therefore the rules for overcurrent protection are specific for particular situations.

FPN: = Fine Print Note and the words shown in Brown are also defined.

Homework: You should take a look at them and add a reply here.
First one with the correct answers gets a prize!


--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: Ryan Jackson
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Quote:
First one with the correct answers gets a prize!


WOOHOO!!!!!

Does that include me?


--
Ryan Jackson, Salt Lake City

Originally Posted By: lfranklin
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Do you mean something like fuses were required to blow at the rating and the breaker is allowed allowed a little bit over it’s rating. Or what types of breakers fail and why? Or Both


Originally Posted By: jtedesco
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



NO!


Rules: No Certified Electrical Inspector or Licensed Electrician:

Only Home Inspectors who are not Certified Electrical Inspectors or Licensed Electricians!

![icon_rolleyes.gif](upload://iqxt7ABYC2TEBomNkCmZARIrQr6.gif)


--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: Ryan Jackson
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



LOL icon_lol.gif



Ryan Jackson, Salt Lake City

Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Quote:
fuses were required to blow at the rating and the breaker is allowed allowed a little bit over it's rating.


Both fuses and breakers may carry above the rating, they both have a time current trip curve.

Your motor loads would not start without this 'time delay'

Breakers can fail to ever open, a fuse will always open.


--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

Originally Posted By: roconnor
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.







Robert O’Connor, PE


Eagle Engineering ?


Eagle Eye Inspections ?


NACHI Education Committee


I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Ryan: So you don’t think I left you out!


Can I still buy panelboards with fuses? How about used equipment?

I have seen "NOS" equipment that is brand new and in far better condition that the new stuff we see!

NOS = New Old Stock ...

![icon_rolleyes.gif](upload://iqxt7ABYC2TEBomNkCmZARIrQr6.gif)


--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



jtedesco wrote:
I believe that fuses are far superior for protection against an overcurrent condition. Some types of circuit breakers fail and we have been made aware that they have a history that may not be the safest protection.


Not participating, just clarifying.

Does "superior for protection against an overcurrent condition" just consider the protection against overcurrent, or does it also include the safety aspect of either's ability of being tampered with?


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



jpeck wrote:
Does "superior for protection against an overcurrent condition" just consider the protection against overcurrent, or does it also include the safety aspect of either's ability of being tampered with?


I think that ship for the most part has sailed. I was in an HD electric dept and a guy was in with his wife looking for a bigger breaker 'cause this 30 amp one for my dryer keeps going off'. ![icon_eek.gif](upload://yuxgmvDDEGIQPAyP9sRnK0D0CCY.gif)

Point is you can not protect people from themselves.

TV has told them to go to the store and DIY it is not hard.


--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

Originally Posted By: roconnor
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



On the plug fuses I would agree with ya Bob, but only if the panel has the Type-S Fuse Adapters installed … I would recommend them for EVERY fused panel.


You can not keep people from doing dumb things ... like tin foil or pennies in the sockets, or swapping out breakers ... ![icon_rolleyes.gif](upload://iqxt7ABYC2TEBomNkCmZARIrQr6.gif) ... but in those cases someone really should know they are doing something very dangerous.


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Bob Badger wrote:
I think that ship for the most part has sailed. I was in an HD electric dept and a guy was in with his wife looking for a bigger breaker 'cause this 30 amp one for my dryer keeps going off'. ![icon_eek.gif](upload://yuxgmvDDEGIQPAyP9sRnK0D0CCY.gif)

Point is you can not protect people from themselves.

TV has told them to go to the store and DIY it is not hard.


True, but at least they will still have some type of overcurrent protection.

What's the rating of a penny? Or tin foil?

Robert, guess you haven't seen Safe-T-Fuses wrapped in tin foil?

RE: Swapping out breakers with ones of a higher rating - every seen oversize fuses installed? 30 amp where 15 should be? No problem on Edison Base type fuses (actually cheaper and easier than swapping breakers). With Safe-T-Fuses? Not quite as easy as with Edison Base fuses, but is done quite often (a little bit of aluminum foil can do miraculous things for Average Joe, and in usefulness, it is only exceeded by duct tape ).

Okay, so now we are in the mist of the 'which is safer' debate. Which, in reality, must be part of every 'which provides better overcurrent protection' debate. The quality of the overcurrent protection is only as good as its resistance to tampering.

Would you rather have a 30 amp fuse on a 15 amp circuit, or a 15 amp fuse with a penny installed or the fuse be wrapped in aluminum foil? Of course, the real answer is "None Of The Above", but I'd like to think that AT LEAST there was 30 amp overcurrent protection instead of (what does it take to melt that penny or aluminum foil?). Besides, anyone who would install a 30 amp breaker on a 15 amp circuit is also going to install a 30 amp fuse on a 15 amp circuit.


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



tamper proof.


Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



bwiley wrote:
Just an out of box thought. Cars use fuses, not breakers. And except for using a bare wire between the poles of the newer style ones, they are
Quote:
fairly
tamper proof.


Yes, but do they make fuses for the house like that?

And can you still over-fuse them? (Yes.) So, are they really any "safer"?

The problem with fuses for the house is that they are just so easy to: a) over-fuse, or, b) tamper with.


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



I don’t disagree that they can be tampered with or overfused, but then by the same token, we find 14/2 connected to 20 or 30 amp breakers all the time right? Probably not as often bypassing a fuse, but the determined harry homeowner will find a way. Just call it…Job Security. icon_biggrin.gif


Originally Posted By: John Bowman
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



When a fuse or circuit breaker blows, simply replacing the fuse or flicking the circuit breaker back on is not the way to solve the problem. The overload that caused the fuse or breaker to blow must be corrected first, otherwise the same thing will immediately happen again.


How do you know what caused the problem? If the fuse blew just after you plugged in an appliance or power tool, chances are the trouble is a short or other defect in that appliance. If it did not occur immediately, however, then the likelihood is that the circuit was overloaded by your plugging in that particular appliance in addition to all the other applicances or lights on that circuit.

If the fuse blows without any new load having been added, then it could be an overload caused by something that kicked on automatically (a refrigerator, for example), or it could be a defect that has developed in the wiring, or in one of the appliances plugged into that circuit.
The failure rates of breakers in this type situation is higher than fuses.


Originally Posted By: jtedesco
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Overcurrent protective devices shall be properly rated for the conductor under the conditions of use.


Make sure that overcurrent protective devices do not show any evidence of physical damage or overheating.

Make sure that all connections and terminations of overcurrent protective devices are not loose or corroded.

Make sure that Listed overcurrent protective devices are used and installed in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.

If there is evidence of over fusing of or tampering with Edison-based-type fuses, recommend installation of Type S nontamperable adapters and fuses.

Make sure that arc-fault circuit interrupters, when installed, operate properly.


--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: Gino Conner
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



I agree with Joe. I never saw a fuse that did not blow on overcurrent or short/fault. If we all moved back to fuses, they could be designed so only the correct rating of fuse is installed for the conductor being protected. Toward the end there of the use of fuses that was being done with Type “S” adapters that reduced the size of the socket so that only the correct sized fuse could be installed.


What is the PRIZE any way???


Originally Posted By: jtedesco
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Quote:
What is the PRIZE any way???


Bragging Rights!

Hey Gino are you thinking about joing NACHI? Sure could use another member, and the cost is compensated many, many times!


--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Now, I am convinced! Watch out for bootleg circuit breakers!


http://www.allbreakers.com/store.asp/pg!products/manuf!18

![icon_rolleyes.gif](upload://iqxt7ABYC2TEBomNkCmZARIrQr6.gif)


--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm