Inspecting a roof....

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1

Originally Posted By: sgilligan
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Lets assume we are inspecting an asphalt shingled roof. My teacher for home inspections told me not to even guess on the amount of layers on a roof, he said it was almost impossible to determine confidently. Other than looking at standard deterioration, nailpops, flashing etc. What do you guys look for. I would be willing to bet 90% of roof problems are not found outside at all, but in the attic. What do you guys look for, and do you attempt to guess on the amount of layers?

2

Originally Posted By: mbailey
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Number of layers is definitely looked for as it can impact a great many things.


What HI school are you going to?

–
Mark Bailey


Stonegate Property Inspections LLC


Ponca, NE

3

Originally Posted By: dfrend
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Figuring layers is pretty easy. And you should of course look for and comment on it.

–
Daniel R Frend


www.nachifoundation.org


The Home Inspector Store


www.homeinspectorstore.com

4

Originally Posted By: James D Mosier
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I am also curious as to what school. Counting layers isn’t rocket science.

–
Jim Mosier

5

Originally Posted By: sgilligan
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I’d rather not mention the school, but the instructor and school is well respected nationally. It’s been awhile, but I think the point he made was roofs can be covered in a way you will not be able to make an accurate determination as to how many roofs have been laid. I know the significance of multiple roofs, that is why I am trying to get some feedback. If you notice 2 roofs in one area, isn’t it possible to miss a third? Since it is not rocket science, how do you guys check?

6

Originally Posted By: dfrend
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How did they teach you to look for more than one layer?

–
Daniel R Frend


www.nachifoundation.org


The Home Inspector Store


www.homeinspectorstore.com

7

Originally Posted By: sgilligan
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That’s the whole point, they didn’t. For the reasons I mentioned.

8

Originally Posted By: mbailey
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Shawn,


Finding the number of layers on a roof is simply common sense, some knowledge about roofing practices (both good and bad practices), and sometimes some detective work. Roofers can try to hide the number of layers on a roof in several ways.

I do not know what you do or do not know about construction, so...Quite simply ? you count the layers. And if something does not seem right (or look right) you look from a different area of the roof.
Example: Often times front and rear of home may have different number of layers - insurance may have only paid for half the roof to be replaced after a storm, etc?
Example: From the front of the home at the eave line it may look like one layer ? but go look at the gable end and there are two or three (or more). There are several ways roofer/contractors can do this.
? There can oftentimes be much more to it than what I have mentioned but this is the very basics.

Going by your schooling ? we see a roof that looks marginal and nearing the end of its useful life. The report mentions this - but does not mention multiple layers ( because you were trained not to look) - and the client buys the house. Six months later they decide to replace the roof instead of waiting for it to completely disintegrate. They call a roofer to provide an estimate ? he tells your client that there are 3 layers on the roof and that all three layers must be torn off before he can install new. I believe the next phone call your previous client makes will be to you ? or it may be their lawyer calling you instead. Without knowing this basic information about inspections you have jeopardized your reputation, your business, and the HI industry.

Go to the Certainteed website ? http://www.certainteed.com/CertainTeed/Pro/Builder/Roofing/
they have excellent free training modules available that cover roofing and great many of there other products.

I would seriously re-think your HI schooling. Not only for your sake, but your clients? Because if they did not consider this very basic part of roofing and home inspections to be important enough to teach properly?.what else are you not learning that you should be? What else are you not learning that may put you or someone else in danger?


BTW ? in case no one has said it yet?Welcome to NACHI and the NACHI message board. Read, post, share, learn.

--
Mark Bailey
Stonegate Property Inspections LLC
Ponca, NE

9

Originally Posted By: sgilligan
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Mark, I really appreciate the time you spent offering feedback. As we both know Home Inspectors must be well trained and cautious as to what is written in the report. I understand 100% what you are saying, however isn’t it difficult to be 100% sure the amount of layers on a roof. If I suspect more than one layer, I would be more inclined to mention in the report “roof appears to have multiple layers of shingles, how many layers is undetectable”.


I really think the main point my instructor was trying to hit was, if there is visible evidence of multiple layers, mention it however it may be a little risky to hazard a guess on exactly how many layers are present.


I don’t think it was poor instruction I got, just a different way of communicating what I see. Some inspectors choose to offer life expectancy on water heaters etc. I was instructed not to do it. If I say a particular water heater has a life expectancy of 10 years, and it is two years old and craps out in year, I will get a call saying I told them it would last 10 years…


I don’t see the problem in mentioning apparent multiple roofs without getting into an exact amount.


Again, thanks for the feedback.

10

Originally Posted By: mbailey
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Shawn,


It was a little hard to follow what you were getting at earlier?thanks for elaborating about your training.

I speak only for myself here? I typically call out as many visible layers as I can clearly identify (even if I have to spell out different areas of the roof one at a time) and then list it as 2+ layers, 3+ layers visible etc?

You were correct when you said ?isn't it difficult to be 100% sure the amount of layers on a roof? ? that is why I list the number of layers I viewed as well as indicate that there may be more that I could not see.

My reasoning for calling out the number of layers I viewed is that if there are 2 layers present my client should get ready for a financial outlay in whatever timeframe this layer has left.
However if they have 3 or more layers their timeframe has significantly decreased and their possible financial outlay has significantly increased ? not only because of the impact 3 + layers has on the life of the roof covering but also because of other related issues that are typically found when this many layers are present. Because of those related and interconnected issues the cost to repair/replace can go up considerably.

The difference in reporting ? when you get down to it maybe minimal from our standpoint as an HI, but to a client that level of communication and therefore their understanding of the actual condition of the home and how it might affect them and their new home might make a big difference financially ? and therefore in their decision to buy that particular home.

Possibly the difference between a 3k tear off to the sheathing and re-shingle to a 15k tear off to the rafters, structural roof repairs, new fascia/soffit, and re-shingle.

By not informing them of the number of layers and how it does/could/might affect them I would feel that I have not properly earned my fee.

As I mentioned, these are only my methods mentioned here. Thanks for your additional comments and letting me expound on my thoughts.

--
Mark Bailey
Stonegate Property Inspections LLC
Ponca, NE

11

Originally Posted By: Lew Lewis
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Shawn,


Until you get comfortable identifying the number of layers, you could tell the client that standards of practice do not require you to identify the number of layers.

12

Originally Posted By: jhagarty
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Lew:


How do you report on layers of roofing?

--
Joseph Hagarty

HouseMaster / Main Line, PA
joseph.hagarty@housemaster.com
www.householdinspector.com

Phone: 610-399-9864
Fax : 610-399-9865

HouseMaster. Home inspections. Done right.

13

Originally Posted By: sspradling
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To add to the discussion by way of a couple of tips I’ve picked up along the way: Gable roofs can be easier to determine, just by gently lifting up the roof edge at the drip line and counting. Or at the ridge, so you can see how they lap or cover there. Also along the rake edge. Usually you can see enough to determine how many layers. Take into account most roofers use a starter course, and in re-roof jobs, sometimes the first several courses are torn off to give the appearance of a one layer roof. Hip roofs are a little more difficult, since there’s no rake edge. Still, by going easy at the drip edge, you can usually get the right number of layers. One more thing, when you’re in the attic, if there are roof vents, check the cut in the sheathing, you can see the sandwich there.


Stu

14

Originally Posted By: Lew Lewis
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Joe,


I will report multiple layers, even though I am not required to do so. I do not state single layer. If it is a new third layer, I will report that.

Years ago a client called me after she closed and asked why did I state in the report that the roof has 3 layers without telling her that the insurance company wouldn't give her insurance because of more than 2 layers.

15

Originally Posted By: dfrend
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Remember you do not always give 100% certain answers. You are hired to give opinions. If you see multiple layers but have a problem determining how many, say that there are multiple layers. Tell them also the downsides to having multiple layers.

–
Daniel R Frend


www.nachifoundation.org


The Home Inspector Store


www.homeinspectorstore.com