Originally Posted By: roconnor This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Chad Fabry wrote:
I think it far more likely that the marks were made using Klein brand lineman's plier's.
I dont think Klein lineman's pliers made those marks ... all the pairs I have would make a finer grained criss-cross pattern mark. I am with JT that said impressions were most likely made by slip joint pliers ... 
(Couldn't resist ... LOL)
-- Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
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NACHI Education Committee
I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
Originally Posted By: roconnor This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Bob Badger wrote:
OK so I get out my razor knife and remove the insulation back past the channel lock marks and it passes. 
That just rubs me the wrong way. Is there anything in the model codes to limit the amount of exposed wire at breakers and lugs?
I thought the trade rule was 1/4" to 3/8" of exposed wire ... but from a quick look at the model codes I didn't find any restriction on maximum amount of exposed wire.
-- Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee
I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
[/quote]That just rubs me the wrong way. Is there anything in the model codes to limit the amount of exposed wire at breakers and lugs?
I thought the trade rule was 1/4" to 3/8" of exposed wire ... but from a quick look at the model codes I didn't find any restriction on maximum amount of exposed wire.[/quote]
There is nothing I have ever seen. As long as ungrounded conductors are secured to be a minimum of 1/4" inch away from each other I am not sure there is a requirement that wire in an enclosure needs any insulation at all to be "legal".
Obviously the bigger the wire, the less it will move around.
Of course this becomes a workmanship issue and it will certainly cause the inspector to look for something he should write up.
Originally Posted By: Bob Badger This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
roconnor wrote:
Bob Badger wrote:
OK so I get out my razor knife and remove the insulation back past the channel lock marks and it passes. 
That just rubs me the wrong way.
It would rub me the wrong way too.
I also agree with all of Greg's comments.
My only point was that the little bit of insulation damage shown in the picture (IMO) is a none issue.
I think it was slip joint pliers, that wire is to fat to get a good grip on with linesmen.
Originally Posted By: roconnor This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
jfarsetta wrote:
You guys have WAY too much time on your hands... 
And ... the point is ...   
Bob ... I could get my 9" Klein Linesman's around those cables ... why I would want to do that I dont know ... ... especially when I have a handy pair of slip joint pilers ( thats my call and I'm sticking with it ... lol).
The fact that I can find no restriction on the max exposed wire is really rubbing me the wrong way. Big time. I would have almost bet the ranch that there was a 3/8" or 1/2" maximum in the code based on the trade rule.
-- Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee
I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
The great thing about the NEC is that it is your code. They will be opening up proposals for the 2008 code next year. Send one in to change the rules on exposed conductors and you will get a free phone book sized ROP in the mail a while later telling you how it went with your proposal and the other several thousand they get.
If nothing else you can be the first one on your block to see the draft of the 2008 code (it’s part of the ROP)
The form is in the back of the code book or online at NFPA.ORG
Originally Posted By: dbozek This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Okkkkkkk…it had to be Klien’s…probably a wimpy sparky…but if he had to use some device to put them wires in there…I’d have to wonder if they weren’t stressed. Think about that!! Perhaps the wires were so tight that the only way to get them in those lugs was to force them…with pliers of some sort…probably Kliens.
– You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they should and could do for themselves. Abraham Lincoln
1. Insulation is the material that prevents the flow of electricity between points of different potential in an electrical system.
2. Failure of the insulation system is one of the most common causes of problems in electrical installations, in both high-voltage and low-voltage systems.
3. Insulation tests are performed on new or existing installations to determine the quality or condition of the insulation of conductors and equipment.
4. The principal causes of insulation failures are heat, moisture, dirt, and physical damage (abrasion or nicks) occurring during and after installation.
5. Insulation can also fail due to chemical attack, sunlight, and excessive voltage stresses.
The question concerning the termination can be answered using 1/4" since that was what an earlier code rule provided back in the 60's in Article 384.
Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
In defense of the sparky, he may have simply been forming the wires so they did fit in the breaker without any stress being transferred to the panelboard. Perhaps the choice of tool may have been bad but it still may not be problem.
Originally Posted By: dbozek This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Greg…
I am a sparky and other than a few impressions on the wires themselves, I really do not see a real problem with the wires. Now if they were cut, scraped or otherwise, I would. My only point was that it obviously took some doing to get those wires in there.....why else use pliers to do it? The wire size is easily manipulated into place by hand. It surely is not 500mcm. Looks like about 2/0.
-- You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they should and could do for themselves. Abraham Lincoln
Originally Posted By: dbozek This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Better yet…that could even be aluminum wire…notice the de-ox on the connections. Even more reason why no tools would be needed to bend it into place. I’d just bet whoever put those things in there had to wrestle with them cuz they were too short…therefore…use pliers…hold them into place…and tighten the bajeebies out of them Notice the one on the right…not quite in line with the left one…actually pulling to the left somewhat…I dunno…just my observations.
– You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they should and could do for themselves. Abraham Lincoln
Originally Posted By: dbozek This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Well…I’m 51 and pretty sure I have all the “ritisessessess” and I dont use tools to bend wires in a panel. I use the ole biceps and triceps, but if I had to use a tool it would be the box end of a combination wrench and preferably a large one. Much more leverage there and no damage to the insulation. Or better yet, if I gotta bend a wire and I can’t cuz I’m a geezer…I would then turn to my favorite tool…it’s called an apprentice
– You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they should and could do for themselves. Abraham Lincoln
