Greg, it was a hydrotherapy tub in the Master bathroom.
Thanks to all for your info. Your input is greatly appreciated.
Craig Cooper
Norwest Inspection Services, Inc.
Greg…are you refering to 2002 or 2005 NEC with the GRID statement. I believe this is a indoor spa based on the picture and the studs in the background of the picture.
As for the grid…those on the 2002 NEC are not doing that as of yet greg…take VA for example…we wont be observing the 2005 NEC until 2008 if we are lucky.
I hope Virginia actually looks at 680.26© before they adopt it. Florida seemed like they first saw this the day after it was adopted.
I have been talking this up since the ROP came out almost 4 years ago and people just stared at me like I was making it up. Now they are suddenly trying to figure out what it means.
Greg,
The GRID requirement in the 2002 NEC is different than the walkway enhancement of the 2005 NEC. The revision for that section was substantial versus 2002.
Not just the renaming of the Section but the whole section was rewritten and revised.
Not really going to apply to pre-fabricated spa units unless they are built into the structure like the pool. In regards to portable spas and so on the sections IV has not changed since 2002 for the most part.Ahhh…
I forgot that in 2005 they did away with the “Double Insulated” provision. Personally it will depend on the installation.
If metal piping like copper plumbing then the bond should take place between metal parts…if all plastic no worries.
Paul, the thinking in Florida is NEC 2005 will require the “paved walkway” within 3’ of any outdoor spa to be bonded just like a pool. 680.42 does not exempt a “packaged spa” anywhere. Unless Va is coming up with different language I am not sure how they can think any other way.
Maybe they haven’t really looked at this yet. As I said, Florida BOs seemed shocked when the questions stated the day after it was adopted.
As a personal opinion, the difference between a spa and a hydromassage tub is presence of a heater. That is probably the most likely source of energized water.
BTW in 2008 you will be bonding the water
I hear ya greg…I was talking about the bonding issue with the motor and parts under it…not so much the Grid as it pertains to a spa.
i think I am hung up on the fact this one in question is Indoors which is where I am pulling my info from.
I have not looked at the outside spa issue…so i think we were chatting on two different things…and I also think I was keying on hydrotherepy tub versus actual outdoor SPA.
interesting enough greg I have to ask…does Florida require this grid if someone places a packaged spa on a back concrete patio if someone add’s a spa to the house…
While I am up to date on the requirement for my teaching but might be helpful for me to get your takes on it as I help next year expanding it as I teach for the state CEU program.
Greg,
I have both 2002 and 2005 handbooks open now…strange enough I have alot of issues with how the NEC does this article but I hate the reference they use in the confusion.
I know part 1 and 2 apply to all pool and spa installations and so on unless modified by in this case the IV of this article.
Ironically…I thought that statement was for the following:
Parts.
(1) Metallic Parts of Structure. Where the reinforcing steel of the permanently installed pool, outdoor spa, or outdoor hot tub or deck is encapsulated with a nonconductive compound or if it’s not available, an equipotential stray voltage grid in accordance with 680.26© must be installed.
So to help me understand…are you saying outdoor spa’s sat on a deck with plug and cord attachment must have a grid installed under the walkway if lets say concrete…
my question is…does this apply to a self contained SPA unit
© Equipotential Grid. To mask stray voltage, an equipotential grid must be installed under paved walking surfaces (3 ft horizontally from the water). The stray voltage grid must be: Fig 680-6
(1) Structural Reinforcing Steel. Uninsulated structural reinforcing steel for a concrete permanently installed pool, outdoor spa, or outdoor hot tub.
Sorry if I went off thread guys…i think we answered the original question. The things me and greg are talking about now are different and I have to admit I GAIN from these conversations so humor me please…always learning myself to gain MORE knowledge on how others view the CODE.
Mike says it best…Debate the CODE always helps you understand it better…
In case anyone is lost on what we are speaking about…this may help
http://www.mikeholt.com/onlinetraining/page_images/1100723312_2.jpg
Change requires an equipotential bonding grid be installed to reduce voltage gradients in and around permanently installed pools, outdoor spas, and outdoor hot tubs.
(B) Bonded Parts. The following parts of a permanently installed pool, outdoor spa, and outdoor hot tub must be bonded to a equipotential bonding grid of the type specified in 680.26©.
Author’s Comment: See 680.42(B) for the bonding methods permitted for outdoor spas and hot tubs.
(1) Metallic Parts of Structure. All metallic parts of the water structure, including the reinforcing metal of the permanently installed pool, outdoor spa, and outdoor hot tub shell and deck, must be bonded to the equipotential grid. The usual steel tie wires are considered suitable for bonding the reinforcing steel together for this purpose. Welding or special clamping is not required, but the tie wires must be made tight. Figure 680-4
Where the reinforcing steel of the permanently installed pool, outdoor spa, and outdoor hot tub shell and deck are encapsulated with a nonconductive compound or if it’s not available, an equipotential grid constructed in accordance with 680.26© must be installed to mask stray voltage gradients.
(2) Underwater Lighting. All metal forming shells for underwater permanently installed pool, outdoor spa, and outdoor hot tub luminaires and speakers.
(3) Metal Fittings. Metal fittings within or attached to the permanently installed pool, outdoor spa, and outdoor hot tub structure, such as ladders and handrails.
(4) Electrical Equipment. Metal parts of electrical equipment associated with the permanently installed pool, outdoor spa, and outdoor hot tub water circulating system, such as water heaters and pump motors. Accessible metal parts of listed equipment incorporating a system of double insulation and providing a means for grounding internal metal parts are not required to be directly bonded to the equipotential grid.
(5) Metal Wiring Methods and Equipment. Metal-sheathed cables and raceways, metal piping, and all fixed metal parts, as well as metallic surfaces of electrical equipment, must be bonded to the equipotential grid if located:
(1) Within 5 ft horizontally of the inside walls of the permanently installed pool, outdoor spa, and outdoor hot tub, and
(2) Within 12 ft measured vertically above the maximum water level of the permanently installed pool, outdoor spa, and outdoor hot tub, or any observation stands, towers, or platforms or any diving structures.
greg…you are 100% correct…but should we define a portable outdoor spa as not permanantly installed and would the GRID apply.
I dont think it applies…but the bonding referred to in 680.43(D) would apply.
**
(b) Grid. **The equipotential (stray voltage) grid must cover the
contour of the permanently installed pool, outdoor spa, or outdoor
hot tub, and deck extending 3 ft horizontally from the water.
The equipotential (stray voltage) grid must be arranged in a 1 ft
x 1 ft network of conductors in a uniformly spaced perpendicular
grid pattern with a tolerance of 4 in.
Be careful lifting rules from one article and trying to apply them somewhere else. 680.43 is “indoor”
while part 1 and part 2 applies to all within the article, I think we are jumping back and forth from outside units to inside units…I was refering to the one in question but I think we agree on the outdoor units if permenantly installed…
I will continue this on the new thread as to avoid the jacking…
Craig,
Here is also come good info…
CMP-17 statement, Proposal 17-183 in the ROP leading to the 2005 NEC:
Panel Statement: The need for bonding in a bathroom differs from the need for bonding in a pool area. Electrical equipment of a hydromassage bathtub is not accessible to users of the tub. Only parts that can cause a voltage gradient in the bathtub need to be bonded. Section 680.74 has been concisely reworded to require the bonding of only the parts that present a risk of creating voltage gradients in the hydromassage bathtub.