Jerry Peck and Dennis Hoffman, your assistance is requested.

Originally Posted By: gromicko
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Jerry, Dennis, or others:


I think some time ago I read Jerry's discussion about how a $10 GFCI tester just doesn't cut it. Then recently the President of CREIA Dennis Hoffman, (also a NACHI member) demonstrated how many electrical wiring defects they miss at our Northern California NACHI Chapter meeting.

Can you tell me what would be a better tester for us to use? Who makes it?

I will then cut us all a deal by purchasing them direct and in bulk so we can all get one inexpensively.

Nick


Originally Posted By: rmoore
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Nick…


I'm fairly confident that it's the Suretest ciicuit analyzer by Ideal Industries ( http://www.idealindustries.com/ ). There are two models...61-154 and 61-155. The latter also has AFCI testing although there seems to be some disagreement on testing AFCI's this way.

Can you get us a deal on CO monitors next? I've already got the Suretest.


--
Richard Moore
Rest Assured Inspection Services
Seattle, WA
www.rainspect.com

Originally Posted By: dhoffman
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- In a couple of months, I will be “Delta Chapter President of CREIA” - currently I am Vice President-President Elect. (CREIA stands for California Real Estate Inspection Association)


I created an electrical simulator that has at least sixteen electrical defects
but will still function safely. There are also correct practice connections to check AFCI and GFCI outlets.
![](upload://f2GhnXTZ6qW8Dqv6Yr5ESqb4V7D.jpeg)

Testers will only correctly detect one defect. When there are more, you will usually get an incorrect reading.
The black tester (second from left) reads OK when in fact there is 1) a reversed polarity and 2) a hot ground.

This can happen, for example, when you have old knob and tube wiring. The wires are not color coded - power/neutral. If you had a reversed polarity and then someone decided to add an "earth" grounded outlet but didn't have an earth ground wire but "bootlegged" a ground from the neutral (at least what you thought was neutral) ends up powered because of reversed polarity. Now you have two things wrong: 1) reversed polarity; 2) bootlegged ground which is now energized

The result is your tester will give you a false reading. Only a combination of testers applied in a proper sequence will give an accurate discovery.

FIRST: use a neon tester and find if the power is on the shorter side (since your body has enough mass to be the ground), you can hold one end of the neon probe and insert the other to complete the circuit and lite the neon bulb to find the energized side.

SECOND: once you've established the polarity issue you can determine whether the "earth" ground is correct by using the new Suretest #61-155 It will (among other things) determines whether it is correctly grounded. Here again, if you are next to the panel you can get a false reading because the distance the ground is traveling is not enough and it could read a false ground. I believe the instructions say at least 15 feet from the panel.

Hopefully this will help

Dennis Hoffman


--
Dennis D. Hoffman
www.hoffmaninspections.com

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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Got a picture with the covers off?


What are the 16 defects?

Mike P.


Originally Posted By: Nick Gromicko
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Thanks Dennis!


Nick



PS. Mike, Dennis tells me he has plans to build his next demo out of clear plexiglass.


Originally Posted By: dhoffman
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I do not have a photo of the insides, just the back of the Electrical Systems Simulator.


Some of the defects are duplicated in different ways and in different combinations. They include:
Reversed polarity
False grounds ? ?bootlegged? ground
Hot Ground
Switched neutral instead of power
Connections made outside of ?J? box
Breakers not labeled
Double neutrals under one lug

Included in this are properly wired outlets with AFCI; GFCI circuits

Also included is a circuit between the ?earth? ground and neutral to demonstrate the result of an isolated neutral vs. a jumper connection. With an amp meter you measure the amount of current traveling on the earth ground when an appliance is used and the neutral is not isolated.

The back photo shows a bootlegged grounded outlet; and a clear AFCI to view the inside workings.

![](upload://nWkLj1CBO6jYeXxUOPVlFrELtXK.jpeg)


--
Dennis D. Hoffman
www.hoffmaninspections.com

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Not being familiar with Dennis’ setup (I’ve never seen it), there is not much I can add to the above.


Well, there is one thing I can add. EVERY HI should, in my opinion, have the Sure Test, and you might as well go for the one with the AFCI test and not just the GFCI test. Not because we need the AFCI tester (it's impractical, I can explain is needed), but because the cost is not much different that the one with the GFCI test and not the AFCI test function.

Sorry about my delay in answering. I was out of town the last 3 days (spent the last two nights there also, to save the long drive there and back each day) doing an electrical rough inspection on a 15,000 sf house. The master suite was 3,500 sf (99' 10" end-to-end, just the master suite)! I really love those inspections on those homes.


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: Nick Gromicko
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Jerry:


Sure Test then? Should I order in bulk for all of us? Can this tool be used by the home inspector who is weak in electrical? Of the 9,000 people who failed NACHI' entrance exam, most failed because of a weakness in electrical. Can the instructions that come with a Sure Test provide enough information for a non-electrician home inspector or is it like taking away someone's shovel and giving them a backhoe?

Is it simple enough?

In your opinion is the CLIENT of an inspector who does not have a full understanding of electricity, better served if this inspector possesses this tool?


Nick


Originally Posted By: dhoffman
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Nick, I know you were asking for Jerry’s opinion but here is my 2 cents worth!


I think it is simple enough to use by most people. Having said that, there are additional things the tester will measure that should have some further instruction to understand how to maximize its usefulness.

The Suretest #61-155 which does both AFCI and GFCI only works on the three prong outlet. The equipment ground does not retract like some models.


--
Dennis D. Hoffman
www.hoffmaninspections.com

Originally Posted By: phinsperger
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Nick,


I would be interested in one.



.



Paul Hinsperger
Hinsperger Inspection Services
Chairman - NACHI Awards Committee
Place your Award Nominations
here !

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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“Can the instructions that come with a Sure Test provide enough information for a non-electrician home inspector or is it like taking away someone’s shovel and giving them a backhoe?”


The instructions are written for qualified persons.

http://www.idealindustries.com/IDEAL-EZ/products.nsf/ItemMasterLookup/p61-155?OpenDocument

Then click on

http://www.idealindustries.com/pdf/nd3595_2.pdf

Mike P.


Originally Posted By: roconnor
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Welcome Kevin.


I'm curious now what defects were wired up that the $10 GFCI testers were missing? If inspectors are spot checking for bootleg jumpers [by removing a cover] when you see 3-prong outlets on 2-wire systems (IMHO one of two disadvantages of the $10 testers), what else is being missed?

Maybe some more detailed information on defects that can be missed for any of the inspectors using the lower grade outlet testers.

P.S. Looks like you set up a great teaching tool. Can I borrow it for some classes ... lol. Ever consider doing an educational training/CE video with that, along with maybe some detailed information on using the SureTest?


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Nick,


This is the way I few our inspection gadgets.

We should have as many as possible to help us out when needed, within, of course, the budget we can afford them.

Most tools get used on an 'as needed' basis. I.e., the HI sees, hears, smells something which makes them pull out whatever gadget they have which will help them.

The receptacle outlet tester, on the other hand, is used all the time. There is no indication of a problem, until you plug your tester in and check it (setting aside that occasional scorched receptacle).

Thus, like a screw driver, ladder, flash light, a good electrical receptacle tester is a must. I don't know of a better one than the Sure Test.

rmoore said "There are two models...61-154 and 61-155. The latter also has AFCI testing although there seems to be some disagreement on testing AFCI's this way." The one I would get (and have) is the 61-155 with the arc-fault test feature. Why? Simply because it did not cost much more than the one without it (I bought it at one of my seminars and the show price was the same, so why not?).

Testing AFCIs with this is rather useless (in my opinion), whereas the GFCI test feature is a necessity.

We test GFCI receptacles on a remote basis: does this one have GFCI protection, how about this one, then this one.

AFCI receptacles, on the other hand, need to be bulk tested: are all the bedroom outlets 'on', trip AFCI breaker, are all bedroom outlets now 'off'. There is no need (with a few possible exceptions) for the HI to actually need the AFCI test feature. But, why not have it if it does not cost much more?

Now, when will the HI test AFCIs? Doing this in a resale will result in turning off power to all bedroom receptacles (well, it should) on houses new enough to have AFCIs installed. Do we really want to do that? Most HIs will only test AFCIs when doing new home walk through inspections.

Either all bedroom outlets are 'on', then 'off', or something is not wired and protected by the AFCI breakers as it should be.

As far as the non-retractable ground prong on the 61-155 model, I always use mine (always have) with the cord attached as it allows me to reach down and plug it in while holding the tester where I can view it easier (especially useful for those 'upside down' receptacles and those installed horizontally). Then, the ground prong in the plug is always there anyway. Now, if you are testing a two-wire receptacle, simply plug the tester into a 3-wire to 2-wire adapter, then plug the adapter into the receptacle. See, there still is a use for those 3-wire to 2-wire adapters. ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)

Nick, what "bulk" quantity are you speaking of? You might be able to work out a better deal with some tool suppliers than with the factory, as they will be gaining new customers. The factory may give them a slightly better cost for the same quantity as the would give you directly as they (the tool suppliers) are existing manufacturer customers, plus this would let them (the HI tool supplier) expand their customer base. Could be a win-win for everyone. Try Jeff or Julie at Tool Experts 888-226-6288, they are local (here) and are good people. Of course, check with all HI tool suppliers for the best deal.


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Nick,


Answering your other question in a separate post so it is not lost in the long post.

ANY HI who is doing home inspections should be able to use the basic functions of the Sure Test 61-155 (or they need to quit doing home inspections).

All you do is plug it in. The tester first lights up with the Sure Test screen, then either says "Wiring OK" or says what the problem is.

For the GFCI test, you simply press the GFCI test button twice. Either the GFCI trips or it doesn't.

There are a few things to learn about it, but for most HIs and most HI uses, it is very simple to use.

Beyond that, it is a learning curve for more advanced functions.

Dennis H., what do you think?


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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No first hand knowledge but:


http://www.iaei.org/foxad.htm

Mike P.


Originally Posted By: dhoffman
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As a property inspector (even though I have some further experience in electrical etc.) I am a generalist and not a specialist. I have some extra tools that if flaunted, make me look like an expert. I want to avoid looking like the expert for legal reasons! I do want to provide the best information so I can defer intelligently to the expert and not look like a fool when the electrician shows up and shows me up for not knowing why I called out his service call for nothing.



Dennis D. Hoffman


www.hoffmaninspections.com

Originally Posted By: bhendry
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Dennis,


Nice job with the simulator.

Question: Did the Suretest report anything as OK that was not OK?

Thanks,

Bill


Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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Since a HI does a “visual” inspection how do you explain “testing” electrical systems?


In Ohio you are not allowed to do this unless you are a licensed electrician or an ESI.

I did not write the law just passing it on.

Mike P.


Originally Posted By: dhoffman
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Bill


1) When the outlet is correctly wired with respect to polarity but has a bootlegged ground to the positive resulting in a powered ground, the SureTest #61-155 reports it as "reversed polarity" - that is incorrect.

2) When the outlet is wired with as reversed polarity and has a bootlegged ground to the positive resulting in a powered ground, the SureTest #61-155 reports it as a "false ground" - that is closer to correct but still not correct--it misses the reverse polarity issue.

With respect to the #2 scenario, the "$10 GFCI tester" will read OK which is false -- at least the SureTest gave some indication that a problem does exist so you can check further with your wiggie as I explained in an earlier post.


--
Dennis D. Hoffman
www.hoffmaninspections.com

Originally Posted By: dhoffman
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Mike Parks wrote:
Since a HI does a "visual" inspection how do you explain "testing" electrical systems?

In Ohio you are not allowed to do this unless you are a licensed electrician or an ESI. . .

Mike P.


With a "visual" inspection, what are you allowed to do?

Remove the cover?

Are you allowed to plug in what we have refereed to as a "$10 GFCI tester"?

How do you report electrical findings?


--
Dennis D. Hoffman
www.hoffmaninspections.com