Latent Moisture - Part Two

Specific Inspection Topics Thermal Imaging, Infrared Cameras & Energy Audits
#1

Here is a pretty good find. The images below indicate latent moisture in the ceiling of a bedroom, and it was absolutely not noticeable without using my IR camera.

This was a pre-offer inspection, and the LA had the home inspected before putting it on the market. I had a chance to review the inspectors report, and besides being hand written without photos, it was very detailed and thorough.

The previous inspector identified everything that I wrote up except this latent moisture issue. Obviously, he could not see it!

This brings me to my intent of the post. I have been offering General ITI Scans as an add-on to my standard inspection. I have been charging 129 for the scan and many of my clients opt to have it included, so I have increased my revenue as a result.

However, with the resent finds, especially this one, I find myself wondering about all the possible stuff I could be missing. As an Inspector, I can’t blame the previous guy as he did not have IR technology. I’m rethinking my stance on offering IR as an additional service. I’m considering using it on every inspection and raising my rates accordingly.

This topic has been discussed many times before, but I would like to get opinions (pros vs cons) on including IR with every inspection.

Thanks in advance :slight_smile:

Kevin

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#2

This would be an individual’s business decision.

I’m not at all amazed by the number of inspectors that have the equipment, with or without proper training, that are giving away this additional service in order to garnish a portion of the general inspection market.

Awful expensive CYA device if you don’t raise your fees. imo ymmv

#3

The question is do consumer (think of yourself) like to buy more than they need? Research suggests consumers like to buy just what they need and not much more. The problem you will run into when offering the bundled service is clients will want to sometimes negotiate the IR service out of your fee and that lowers your average. This is of course, assuming you pick a middle number to account for the bonus cash flow you deserve from making the investment in your business and providing a higher level of service.

I vote no.

I think your best bet is to offer the service with an incremental fee and let your customer decline it, at their own peril.

Good discussion. No right or wrong. Just my thoughts.

#4

I agree Barry.

I raised my fees and include it with every inspection. (My decision)
I know of some inspectors who include IR but have not raised their prices and are cheap for a traditional inspection in my opinion. (Their decision)
To each their own. I have only had one caller balk at my pricing (yesterday)

I wouldn’t think of not including this service. I wouldn’t have discovered this issue in new construction without it!

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#5

I am with William. I was leaning this way when I got the camera. After the first week and finding some real interesting/big problems that would not have been found without IR, I finalized that position. While I do not have exact numbers, I would say I find something with IR that I would not have found without it on 60 - 70 percent of my inspections and at least half of those are significant issues.

I have raised my prices and continue to do so every chance I get. If people balk at my price on the phone I tell them flat out, “I would rather not do an inspection, than do an inspection without the IR. Because my personal experience tells me how valuable it is. But I understand that not all people or customers will agree or understand.” I am busy and feel more comfortable this way.

I too, see inspectors in this area that do use IR and I think their prices are way too low - lower than what I charged before IR. I had one client that was choosing between myself and one of these lower priced guys. He called me three times and kept asking questions trying to compare us, our experience, and our cameras because my price was about double. I finally told him that I would not evaluate or coment on the other inspectors equipment or experience. That I was confidant about mine and my price was firm. The forth time he called, we scheduled the inspection. But I guess it is an individual thing, I am sure there are other inspectors who might say the same about my prices (I actually did one recently that you apparently quoted too Barry - your price was higher - so I need to keep moving up!) I will keep raising my prices, because if you explain and educate about it, price is not always the clients top concern.

#6

Since I am new to IR, I am on the fence about how to price it. This last week I’ve been using it as another tool in my tool bag, just like a moisture meter. Doing so has also discovered items I wouldn’t have in the past. I’m beginning to think along the lines of including it in every inspection and raising my prices accordingly. I will also offer seperate “stand alone” infrared inspections - for plumbers, HVAC, homeowners, eneryg audits, etc…

I see it as a tool that puts me at the top of my game. So why should I only use a tool that can prove to find hidden defects easily, only if a customer wants it. If that’s the case there may be many times it sits in the case and not earning for me. If I include it in every inspection and price them accordingly, it’s earning every day.

Compare it to the moisture meter, I use that at every inspection. Now I believe I have another tool I will use at every inspection. Don’t keep it bottled up, expose it, show them(consumers) that your one of the top inspectors in your field using top technology to educate them on their purchase, or maintenance whichever it may be!

JMO

#7

I do not inspect without the use of my camera but charge accordingly.
I also offer add on’s or stand alone. I don’t leave home without it)))))

#8

I agree completely. I too will do stand alone limted IR scans. In fact, I am really starting to try and market these more.

Brian is right about the Wow factor. My referrals are way way up since I added IR. You can hardly put a value on the benefit you (and the customer) get when you find some unexpected anomaly that was ONLY going to be found with IR. You can bet that whether or not they understood the concept before, they are telling all of their friend about how their inspector found XXXXX (invisible water, no insulation, disconnected HVAC ductwork, whatever.) It makes a real impression. It is even better when the builder come in on the repair and hem and haas about how IR is a fad and complete bunk and that ALL OF THEIR EXTERIOR WALLS ARE FULLY INSULATED. That if they pull that sheetrock and find insulation the client will pay, blah blah blah. Then your client, confident about your results because you were, says go ahead and remove it. Guess what you get…a builder with egg or s%?t on their face, paying for their mistake and a client that could not be happier about your service. As Brian said, my camera is working and earning, directly or indirectly, everyday.

As Steve said, there is not really a wrong way to do this, except maybe not realizing that you can and should charge more than inspectors without it. It is all personal/professional choice, properly sold and explained, you probably achieve the same results.

#9

I think the camera needs to be in my bag at every inspection. this is from todays inspection. I saw one bee fly into the wall of the fire place and then another.
I went inside and took this IR of the interior wall adjacent to the fire place.
I then point this condition out to the seller and the buying agent and the seller said that she had a bee guy come 2 weeks ago and get the bees.

The seller then paid me on the spot to mark out the wall areas that needed to be opened to remove the Bees.

Bee man come get em.

The agent saw what the camera can do and how this was a major find for
the buyers. about 1,500.00 to get that nest out of that interior wall and repair and paint. A 200.00 Scan is going to be a part of every inspection for this agent from now on.

Best

Ron

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#10

Ron,

The pest control company I used to use specialized in bee removal. I had intended on trying to work with them when I got my camera, but the sold out to Terminix. From talking to them I was sure you could use it this way. But yours are the first photos I have seen. Would you mind if I borrowed your pictures?

#11

Ues them as you need.

FYI. The temp on that 80F

Best

Ron

#12

I think this should be your own decision about your pricing.

My question to you, did you use a moisture meter to confirm the moisture? Also, Did you find the culprit of the leak? Infrared cameras are a useful tool finding moisture, missing insulation, roof inspections, Stucco, and other structural anomalies. Some infrared images can be misleading, so be careful what you report.

I recommend using the moisture meter to confirm everything. Sometimes these moisture areas “could” be dry depending on the time of day.

Thanks

[FONT=Century Gothic]Paul Ogletree, Instructor/Consultant[/FONT]
NACHI04052691
ASNT Level III Thermal/Infrared
[FONT=Century Gothic]The[/FONT][FONT=Century Gothic] [FONT=Century Gothic][FONT=Century Gothic]Snell[/FONT] [FONT=Century Gothic]Group[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Century Gothic]P.O. Box 6[/FONT]
[FONT=Century Gothic]Montpelier, Vermont 05601-0006 USA[/FONT]
[FONT=Century Gothic]Tel. +1.802.229.9820 Fax +1.802.223.0460[/FONT]
[FONT=Century Gothic]pogletree@thesnellgroup.com[/FONT]
[FONT=Century Gothic]www.thesnellgroup.com[/FONT]

#13

Do you think I needed a moisture meter for this one? I actually didn’t need the IR.

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#14

Obviously not… Some do not need even a camera. It’s a good practice to obtain a meter for the ones you do not see with the naked eye and IR shows an indication of moisture. Nice image though!!!

Thanks

[FONT=Century Gothic]Paul Ogletree, Instructor/Consultant[/FONT]
NACHI04052691
ASNT Level III Thermal/Infrared
[FONT=Century Gothic]The[/FONT][FONT=Century Gothic] [FONT=Century Gothic][FONT=Century Gothic]Snell[/FONT] [FONT=Century Gothic]Group[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Century Gothic]P.O. Box 6[/FONT]
[FONT=Century Gothic]Montpelier, Vermont 05601-0006 USA[/FONT]
[FONT=Century Gothic]Tel. +1.802.229.9820 Fax +1.802.223.0460[/FONT]
[FONT=Century Gothic]pogletree@thesnellgroup.com[/FONT]
[FONT=Century Gothic]www.thesnellgroup.com[/FONT]

#15

Brian what camera did you use for that ir scan ?

Best

Ron

#16

Fluke TiR

#17

What was unusual was how the visible mold was not as evident on the lower wainscot section of the wall. I’m assuming that growth is not as rapid on “gloss” paint, the top half is a flat paint which shows the most growth. The source was a flooded basement, about 10" or so.

#18

All my inspection come with IR.

When someone says “will you do an inspection without the IR
scan, so I can save money?”…

I reply…

“is it alright if there is hidden moisture in the house and I do not
report it?”

They always say “NO”… and I say “now you know why I will
not do an inspection without my IR camera”.

It’s a no brainer.

I just found 4 hidden moisture areas in a house today.
Don’t leave home without your IR camera.

#19

I find myself in the middle of the road on this one.

What the infrared camera can do is not known by the general public, as of yet. Asking someone if they want to spend another $125 over the cost of a normal home inspection for something they don’t understand is not very productive.

I think that increasing your overall pricing in use by are on every inspection pays for itself in numerous ways.

Increased income per job.
You are going to find something in many cases.
The examples of what this technology can find gets around rapidly.
In a very short period of time I have begun receiving specific infrared inspection calls from people with problems that they know about.
The camera doesn’t do any good in the case.
You don’t learn how to use the camera when it’s in the case.
You can’t gather a library of reference photos for future use when you’re depending on paid inspections only.

This week I did an inspection with infrared at an inflated price. I found a new construction home with no insulation on the second-floor. The builder hired me after repairs were made. They were still issues. The client rehired me again before closing. $1500 on an inspection where the client declined IR as an add-on. My inflated initial price covered use of the camera and produced two more inspections on the same house.

One other point, if you don’t use it and get experience (even if it’s for free) where are you going to get your experience from? This week I was also confronted in a new construction situation questioning the validity of the infrared camera to determine the lack of insulation in a home where there was no physical access to the attic. Due to the lack of accessibility there was no way for me to do follow-up investigations or use other equipment to verify the infrared findings. I was bombarded from six different corporate personnel, insulation company owners and HVAC contractors. I stood my ground. Eventually they knocked a hole in the ceiling and climbed into the attic space “he’s right there is no insulation up here!”.

This also covers the point concerning adequate education in the use of this equipment. We are not going to be received with open arms in the building community. If you make an a$$ out of yourself one time, your credibility is shot forever.

#20

You’re on the right track about the paint Brian. Gloss paint is “sealed” and the flat paint has “open pores” that can trap moisture for extended periods of time. We all know mold grows with moisture…

Thanks

[FONT=Century Gothic]Paul Ogletree, Instructor/Consultant[/FONT]
NACHI04052691
ASNT Level III Thermal/Infrared
[FONT=Century Gothic]The[/FONT][FONT=Century Gothic] [FONT=Century Gothic][FONT=Century Gothic]Snell[/FONT] [FONT=Century Gothic]Group[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Century Gothic]P.O. Box 6[/FONT]
[FONT=Century Gothic]Montpelier, Vermont 05601-0006 USA[/FONT]
[FONT=Century Gothic]Tel. +1.802.229.9820 Fax +1.802.223.0460[/FONT]
[FONT=Century Gothic]pogletree@thesnellgroup.com[/FONT]
[FONT=Century Gothic]www.thesnellgroup.com[/FONT]