Lightning Protection Systems- Do You Check It?

Specific Inspection Topics Electrical Inspections
1

Hey Guys,

Just wanting another educational moment with you all…

Have you ever been to an inspection and their was a Lightning Protection System…you know the ones with the rods on the roof and they lead down to their own ground rods…have you ever thought to yourself…are they bonding this thing correctly?

I found in a recent conversation with a few AHJ’s across the country they it is nearly 30% of them do not think the lightning system should be bonded with the grounding electrode system of the house…they say they need to be kept apart…well…the NEC see’s it differently.

If you have your CODE books handy…check out 250.106 and give it a look see…

**250.106 Lightning Protection Systems.

**The lightning
protection system ground terminals shall be bonded to the
building or structure grounding electrode system.

FPN No. 1: See 250.60 for use of air terminals. For further
information, see NFPA 780-2004,

Standard for the Installation
of Lightning Protection Systems, which contains detailed
information on grounding, bonding, and spacing from
lightning protection systems.

FPN No. 2: Metal raceways, enclosures, frames, and other
non–current-carrying metal parts of electric equipment installed
on a building equipped with a lightning protection
system may require bonding or spacing from the lightning
protection conductors in accordance with NFPA 780-2004,

*Standard for the Installation of Lightning Protection Systems
*

.
Separation from lightning protection conductors is
typically 1.8 m (6 ft) through air or 900 mm (3 ft) through
dense materials such as concrete, brick, or wood.

Also check out 250.60 as well…

**250.60 Use of Air Terminals.

**Air terminal conductors and
driven pipes, rods, or plate electrodes used for grounding air
terminals shall not be used in lieu of the grounding electrodes
required by 250.50 for grounding wiring systems and equipment.
This provision shall not prohibit the required bonding
together of grounding electrodes of different systems.

FPN No. 1: See 250.106 for spacing from air terminals.
See 800.100(D), 810.21(J), and 820.100(D) for bonding of
electrodes.

[size=2]FPN No. 2: Bonding together of all separate grounding
electrodes will limit potential differences between them and
between their associated wiring systems.

So…when looking at the electrical systems…and you notice a lightning protection system on the roof…see if the lightning system is installed correctly…you may be surprised.

Does this go above and beyond your scope…yep it might…but for educational puposes figured you might like to know…

This is for Educational Purposes Only…Paulright Protected ![/size]

2

These systems are not a part of the NACHI SOP.

3

NEVER said it was…so you are saying you are TOO good to learn Mr. Bushart?

Are you saying…someone can’t go beyond it if they wish…?

I’m an Inspector…I check it when I see it…are you saying I can’t?

II. The inspector is not required to operate:

H. Moisture meters, gas detectors or similar equipment.

AND what about those using Thermal Imaging…hmmmmm…are you saying they CANT?

BUT how many inspectors OUT THERE use Moisture Meters…and Gas Detectors…Your POINT IS ?

AGAIN…this is EDUCATION only…was simply asking if anyone checked this…and if so do they want to know what the NEC says about it…nothing more.

4

Paul, I like you and find you very informative but James only stated a fact without and condemnation of any additional services a HI may chose to preform

5

You obviously don’t know that Mr. Bushart does not care much for me…again it was for educational purposes…explaining the bonding of lightning systems.

Many things are beyond the SOP but are done all the time…again this was for education only.

Just wanted to know clarrification on the SOP…as I do many things beyond it…so basically I was not cutting Mr. Bushart…was making a statement…are all HI’s to STOP at the SOP if they feel comfortable going furthur…thats all.

6

You need to go back on your meds, Paul. :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

7

nope…but seriously since you are on the SOP committee…are you saying people can’t go beyond the SOP…honestly I am confused now and would like your take on it…but please…I edited it …as I believe your motives were genuine…so please explain to me the stance of the SOP and IF someone goes beyond it…( please leave out the legal issues involved…I dont see a concern with it in some areas )

8

I guess I need to go back on my meds too .
James seems to have much knowledge I wish he would share more of it .
I have been ignoring most of his posts as it looks to me like he is only trying to destroy what ever has been said or posted .
He seems to disagree with many things that are posted and not adding much on how things could be improved .
I guess I just need to keep him on my ignore List .
This is to bad as he could add much info if he tried .
Roy Cooke

9

For the record…I never said that you SHOULD check it…I asked DO you check it…and then as you see above simply made an attempt to explain it.

Has nothing to do with the SOP…you can clearly go beyond it if you feel qualified to do so…I was only making an attempt to help qualify you by proxy of education about the subject.

Most HI’s will not…I accept that and not trying to suggest they all do…but found it interesting that many AHJ’s do not understand the NEC on it so I figured what better thing to do than explain the NEC’s view on it and if anyone learned anything from it…so be it.

Anyway…hope it was helpful…not bashing you JB…simply wanted to educate…are I for one am never to educated to learn more…I learn daily…:slight_smile:

Sorry if anyone did not find this educational or helpful…accept my appologies

10

I for one found it very helpful and thank you Paul!

I do not find many of these systems installed and may make a comment on them if they are severely in disrepair. Now I may pay a little closer attention to them.

Thanks again Paul! I have always found you a great asset to this BB unlike certain other members.

11

People make their own business decisions.

For people who inspect in accordance with the SOP, the SOP provides protection for them. It is the standard that they apply in all of their inspections and it is the standard that they can expect their client to hold them accountable for.

When a person decides to inspect outside of the SOP, he steps outside of the boundaries of that protection.

I simply pointed out, in response to your choice of topic, that such an observation would place an inspector outside of the protection offered him by the SOP.

12

Thank you James…I thank you for your position on the subject.

13

Most electrical inspectors don’t really know that much about lightning systems either, even here in lightning country. They just look for fat wire, no sharp turns and good regular bonding practices. Real lightning systems will use braided fine strand conductors since the leading edge of a lightning strike acts like RF and skin effect is a factor. It is a very short duration event and by the time it could saturate a thick conductor it is gone. It just rides on the skin.
In the computer biz we looked at lightning and other short duration transients as a race. You shunt it before it can hurt you. You slow down the shot on signal lines with iron and let it go as fast as you can on the bond (short braided wire). Hopefully it is gone before it hits the circuitry.
In a lightning rod system you want to shunt the shot to ground before it can burn down the house by taking a more resistive path. Resistance is heat. There will always be a spike on everything electrical but if it all rides the spike up and rides it back down nobody gets hurt. In that respect you want it connected to your star wired grounding electrode system, where your protectors get connected.

14

Hey Greg…I do have a question for you…since most places DO NOT truly understand the installation of the lightning systems…they are getting more popular up here…

What is YOUR take on the companies that are installing the lightning rod systems within the attic space…then running the conductors down the wall cavity to the basement…and out the wall…

I have inspected a few ( on the electrical side ) and they have always been outside the dwelling…but recently we have a company in the area who are running them through the attic…poking the rods out the attic space and then all of the braids are within the attic and down the finished wall in the insulation…

What is your opinion of that…?

15

Paul

When I see a lightning protection system I will inspect and report on same but remember I have some knowledge in that area

At this point in time it is not a HI issue because very few homes have a system – Sort of like solar electrical systems

Times might change

Maybe we could start a thread on LPS - chokes - and building halos – lot of fun – and yes I am name dropping to impress (my kids just take me for granite and I need someone to think I know something)

rlb

16

lol…hell i do it all the time RLB…I got your back…:slight_smile:

We are seeing them alot more…I just did a local AHJ thing where I spoke on the lightning rod systems because we are seeing MUCH more of it…and they should be bonded to the GEC system…but being that I don’t install them and their is not an enforceable standard…most is voluntary organizations…I figured I would ask for the take on the systems running INSIDE the dwelling…

Now I inspect them and when filling in for the AHJ’s I have inspected a few…but always on the outside of the building…but I have seen two in a row where it is on the inside…and without having one of the NFPA books handy that cover lightning protection systems…figured possibly someone would know…any ideas on it…

Personally…I dont like the idea of the system running through the attic space and down the finished walls…but again I could be jadded on it.

17

Paul

Inside protection if done right does work but in my opinion must also be linked to proper outside protection. Telecom industry does it all the time and they think that it works

If not linked I think they are just taking some ones $$ for a sub standard system

Would sure like to see some tec information from an engineering point of view

rlb

18

RLB,

I spoke with a guy from who actually installs them and they said many today are installed inside now days in the attic…he said they don’t really have a problem with it…but he also said their is no enforcement of how they actually install it either…

But from what i am reading…spent some time today at lunch in the truck ( had some FREE wireless connection time…who’s I have no idea…lol ) and did a search on the subject…

Seems it is ok to be inside…when asked does he connect it to the GEC…and make sure the rod for the LPS is atleast 6’ from the ground rods for the house…he said…well we dont connect that…

Found it interesting…neat guy…knew his stuff…i told him about the requirement and he said…you know…we thought they needed to be…I conceed it is not his issue…most electricians will probably take care of that anyway…

But thats all i could find on it today…

Oh…he installs it to he following : Underwriters Laboratories found that properly designed and correctly installed systems meeting the UL 96A installation standard are approximately 99% effective.

Interesting stuff…I want one of those books…

19

I see lightning systems as operating in two modes. They do tend to bleed off the charge before it results in a lightning hit and in that mode I don’t see a big problem with the conductors running on the inside.
The other mode is when that charge is not totally bled off and it does take a lightning hit. The salesman will say the hit is going to be smaller than the one you were going to get but there still may be a big fireball running down that wire. I want that outside.

The systems I have seen on toll booths and some helicopter pads have fat 2/0 or larger braided cables going off the edge of the roof in a sweeping arc and on standoffs down the side of the building to the electrodes. The bonding to the building electrode is a bare #4 (to avoid physical protection beefs) buried pretty deep. In the toll booths and radio towers it was just connected to the ground ring and radials.

20

Thats what I wanted to hear…the ones I have looked at and inspected were outside…

Do you think greg it is a lack of something enforceable in regards to it or something else…

truly want to know…my initial concern was of the obvious wires running through the attic…and down the wall into the insulation and through the floor plates and…well just did not seem right…

Sad thing is I dont have a standard book on them…to refer to but I asked the guy if he had one…he said yes…and ( very nice guy BTW…) and he said it says nothing about being inside or outside…

Guess it was my THINKING of those exposed bare braided conductors running down the wall…not sure if lightning hit MY house and i had a system like that…if I would want it running down my walls and through my attic…

I think I also called one of the placed that actually certify these installs for a standard…and he said their was no actual governing of their work in any state…which is why they formed the standard…but i guess it is not enforceable…

I know (2) AHJ’s who called me to ask my opinion on it…I only told them it needs to be bonded to the GEC system…but knew nothing on the actual installation requirements other then ROD locations and spacing.

Do you have any insite on this…for personal use…