lololol…and Birth Defects…
opps…disclaimer : Except for Home Inspectors who live in California, They are Exempt from the condition.
Just to end on this…I will post the NEC to make it perfectly clear…
**404.4 Wet Locations
**A switch or circuit breaker in a wet location or outside of a building shall be enclosed in a
weatherproof enclosure or cabinet that shall comply with 312.2(A). Switches shall not be
installed within wet locations in tub or shower spaces unless installed as part of a listed
tub or shower assembly.
**Wet Location: **
[FONT=TimesNewRomanPSMT]Installations under ground or in concrete slabs or masonry in direct
contact with the earth; in locations subject to saturation with water or other liquids, such
as vehicle washing areas; and in unprotected locations exposed to weather.
NOW…if you see MY son take a bath…it would be most indeed subject to Saturation…
[/FONT]
OK, Here is my direct question.
In the diagrams I have seen to date, the wall in the footprint of the tub is always immediately next to the tub rim.
In mine and Johns photo there is a space between the tub rim and the wall.(Review photos)
Can a switch be on the wall over the tub if the wall is not next to the rim of the tub?
IMHO “tub or shower spaces” is poorly defined.
As Paul stated…
**Switches shall not be installed within wet locations in tub or shower spaces unless installed as part of a listed **tub or shower assembly.
Definition of WET LOCATION…
**NEC Definitions: **from the National Electric Code
**Dry Locations: **A location not normally subject to dampness or wetness. A location classified as dry may be temporarily subject to dampness or wetness, as in the case of a building under construction.
**Damp Location: **Locations protected from weather and not subject to saturation with water or other liquids but subject to moderate degrees of moisture. Examples of such locations include partially protected locations under canopies, marquees, roofed pen porches, and like locations, and interior locations subject to moderated degrees of moisture, such as basements, some barns, and some cold storage buildings.
**Wet Locations: **Installations underground or in concrete slabs or masonry in direct contact with the earth; in locations subject to saturation with water or other liquids, such as vehicle washing areas; and in unprotected locations exposed to weather.
**UL Definitions: **from UL Standard Publication 1598
**Dry Locations: **A location not normally subject to dampness, but may include a location subject to temporary dampness, as in the case of a building under construction, provided ventilation is adequate to prevent an accumulation of moisture.
**Damp Location: **An exterior or interior location that is normally or periodically subject to condensation of moisture in, on, or adjacent to, electrical equipment, and includes partially protected locations.
**Wet Locations: **A location in which water or other liquid can drip, splash, or flow on or against electrical equipment. A wet location luminaire shall be constructed to prevent the accumulation of water on live parts, electrical components, or conductors not identified for use in contact with water. A luminaire that permits water to enter the luminaire (during the rain test of Clause 13.5.2 or the sprinkler test of Clause 13.5.3)
shall be provided with a drain hole.
Now you can use your own discretion…
David, Wet location definition is not really the issue here IMHO.
Thanks for the diagram David, that one I have not seen.
I guess the tub area is the tub area no matter how far away the wall is from the edge of the tub.
BTW-I’m not questioning the correctness of the code.
When I worked for an NRTL, this is the type of question that would get kicked up the chain for a final determination of the intent of the code or standard. It wasn’t unusual for the Chief engineer to contact someone on the code committee to chat and find out their intent. Not that they all agreed but the as the one contending with my clients on an issue like this I had to have some reason to deny or allow a certain construction if the client pushed back from my initial evaluation. Code and Standards writing is a process and is subject to change.
Again…the Switch is within the wet location as it is clear in the pictures they would be subject to saturation and in my opinion would not be allowed based on 404.4 of the NEC. ( Remember I install to the NEC so thats as far as I am going…electrician wise )
Now the idea of the threshold comes into place from the edge of the tub itself to the walls…the outer edge…not the small gaps to the SIDE and BACK of the tub…those areas are part of the tub space…the space as listed by the NEC encompases 3’ and 8’ in total…but thats dealing with light fixtures ( opps…Luminares…)
Basically here is my golden rule ( agree or not…wont change how I do it…
)…the tub or shower area goes from the outer footprint to the wall around the outer edge…it defines the tub or shower area in my mind…anything within that space is within the tub and shower space…
Now…while we could overly define everything down to every detail in the NEC…we have to use understanding and knowledge of a wet location…it’s not a matter of being able to reach it…it’s a matter of where it is.
Paul,
I think your reasoning is very well done in this case.
Thanks for your input.
It’s a bit of a judgement call and I trust your judgment;-)
Someone asked me one time…what about a freestanding tub, what about a switch in that area and I said…well unless they cut a switch into the TUB itself it is not within the wet location because it is not defined by walls and so on that a switch can actually be mounted to be in that wet location…
So the actual SPACE aids in defining the Wet Location…now the only question is HOW high on the wall could you put the switch and it NOT be considered in a WET LOCATION ( if no shower is installed )
Probablt better to be written as followed:
Switches shall not be installed within tub or shower spaces unless installed as part of a listed tub or shower assembly.
Ahh…but thats for another day…
BUT…I agree Michael…it would be NICE to have it defined better because if you move up the wall say 6’ is it a wet location ( might be with my son ) but see my definition above…I probably will submit that to the next cycle of the NEC…who knows.
Now, lets get to the real unspoken question. If instead of that being a dimmer switch it was a wall mounted light - is it illegal or legal per code - not common sence **OR **safety but code.
A surface mounted fixture would definitely be legal.
The type of tub/shower is one variable though. Point being if the fixture is “subject to shower spray”.
- Article 410
Luminaires (Lighting Fixtures), Lampholders, and Lamps
410.4 Luminaires in Specific Locations
Part II. Luminaire Locations
The text was modified to clarify the types of luminaires not permitted within 3 ft horizontally and 8 ft vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or shower stall. And new rule requires luminaires in bathtub or shower zone to be listed for damp locations, or listed for wet locations where subject to shower spray.
- *(D) Above Bathtubs. No part of chain-, cable-, or cord luminaires, track lighting, or ceiling paddle fans is permitted to be located within 3 ft horizontally and 8 ft vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or shower stall threshold (bathtub/shower luminaire zone). Figure 410-2
Author’s Comment: The 3 ft by 8 ft bathtub/shower luminaire zone does not apply to recessed or surface mounted luminaires, switches, or receptacles. See 404.4 for switch requirements and 406.8© for receptacle requirements. Figure 410-3
Luminaires located in bathtub and shower zone must be listed for damp locations, or listed for wet locations where subject to shower spray.*
http://www.mikeholt.com/onlinetraining/page_images/1100705340_4.jpg
Speedy,
Please provide alternative wording that would be non-offensive to you and defensible in a court of law and I’ll consider revising.
Where did I say I was offended? It’s just annoying when we have to prove that something is normal because someone in an assumed position of “power” says it is not.
Like I said, the word “electrocution” is used here to raise an alarm. People fear that word and you know it.
I’ll ask again, this is a safe and legal installation, where is the risk of “electrocution”? If it were not safe don’t you think someone, somewhere, would have proposed a change???
And there’s that court of law thing again. Sorry, thankfully I don’t live my life trying to stay out of court. I just do the right thing and I am fine.
hmmm…I thought we were talking about only switches in the tub or shower space…luminares are a whole different beast.
Offense/annoyed is just semantics. If you prefer annoyed I’ll go with that. 
My inability to verify proper bonding and presence of GFCI for the hydro-tub (No access panel) in my thread drift earlier would lead me to err on the overly cautious side. I don’t use this as a canned statement for every switch found in a bathroom. I did forget to add to my previous statement in question “unless this can otherwise be verified as a safe installation by a qualified electrician.”
Then an “expert” has verified the proper installation of all equipment and all parties concerned can be assured the potential is not there.
Electrocution occurs when a small, specific amount of electrical current flows through the heart for 1 to 3 seconds. 0.006-0.2 Amps (that’s 6-200mA milliamps) of current flowing through the heart disrupts the normal coordination of heart muscles. These muscles loose their vital rhythm and begin to fibrilate. Death soon follows.
Maybe I missed something but under the right circumstances it doesn’t take much.
And I have never nor could I imagine being present to witness the exact scenario required to create such an event in a bathroom.
Jobsite yes (1), bathroom doubtful, unless it was my own and that would end this conversation.
I am not referring to bonding or GFI confirmation, or access panels. I am directly referring your statement in post #13, regrading “the hydro-tub switch location” posing an electrocution threat.
So you are saying that you think a “to code” installation could pose an “electrocution threat”, yet you don’t know why.
That is like going out to the parking lot, pointing at a car and saying “That car could kill someone. Better check it out”.
Sorry, in my world there is a reasonable sized gap between offended and annoyed. A splinter annoys me, it does not offend me. My previously described scenario is like a splinter.
lol…quote someone famous ( and not sure why ) “can’t we all just get along”…lol
OK…on a different note…
[FONT=Times-Bold][size=2]680.71 Protection. **
Hydromassage bathtubs and their associated
electrical components shall be on an individual branch circuit(s)
and protected by a readily accessible ground-fault circuit
interrupter. All 125-volt, single-phase receptacles not exceeding
30 amperes and located within 1.83 m (6 ft) measured
horizontally of the inside walls of a hydromassage
tub shall be protected by a ground-fault circuit interrupter(
s). [ROP 17-85a, 17-165]
[FONT=Times-Bold][size=2]**Accessible (as applied to equipment). **Admitting close
approach; not guarded by locked doors, elevation, or other
effective means.
Vessus
[/size][/FONT]**Accessible, Readily (Readily Accessible). **
Capable of being reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections
without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite
to climb over or remove obstacles or to resort to portable
ladders, and so forth.
So in MY opinion in 2008 NEC…just having it behind a panel is not considered readily accessible…
having to take off a panel that I MIGHT know know is their…is not Readily Accessible…Coming in 2008
**[/size][/FONT]
Accesibility is exactly what I was referring to back in 13
No access, the whole install is questionable to me, thus the potential