main breaker outside

Originally Posted By: bsarles
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i need some insight guys. outside next to the meter was a metal box that had a 150 amp breker in it. i went inside to the panel and there was no main but i saw where the main was fed from in the main panel. now also the box was a bryant and was only rated for 125 amp max but the 150 amp breaker was in a sub outside.since the main breaker technically was not in the main panel which is only rated for 125 amp is this ok or what??? Ialso found other types of brekers whioch i wrote up but am concerned with the previous.


Originally Posted By: mcyr
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icon_biggrin.gif


Come oh you electrical wizards out there, help this guy out.


Originally Posted By: jpope
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Quote:
i need some insight guys. outside next to the meter was a metal box that had a 150 amp breker in it.


Service equipment with 150 amp service

Quote:
i went inside to the panel and there was no main but i saw where the main was fed from in the main panel. now also the box was a bryant and was only rated for 125 amp max


Load side equipment (sub panel) requires isolated neutrals and bonded grounds.

Quote:
but the 150 amp breaker was in a sub outside.


Wrong.

Quote:
since the main breaker technically was not in the main panel


The service disconnect was in the service panel and it was 150 amps.


--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738

Originally Posted By: lkage
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mcyr wrote:
![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)
Come oh you electrical wizards out there, help this guy out.



No wizard here but I agree with Jeff:

Service disconnect outside by meter with sub-panel inside.


--
"I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him."
Galileo Galilei

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Benjamin,


While I do agree with Jeff as to form and content, I do not agree this scenario is alright.

You would be correct to call out a main lug panel rated at 125 amps, running off a main disconnect rated for 150 amps.

If I am understanding you correctly, the main disconnect was a breaker rated at 150 amps, the service panel, was rated for 125 amps. While the reverse would be alright, you can not feed a 125 amp panel with a breaker rated for 150 amps.


--
Joe Myers
A & N Inspections, Inc.
http://anii.biz

Originally Posted By: bsarles
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thanks guys for the info i called it out before i got your answers but since i havent seen that hook up before along with the other items i knew it should be looked at by a pro. yet i wanted to get some feed back thanks again Ben


Originally Posted By: Robert Gallahorn
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Does any one have a clue when the NEC required the 4 wire system to a sub panel of this nature?



It’s all in the wording

Originally Posted By: jpope
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jmyers wrote:
While the reverse would be alright, you can not feed a 125 amp panel with a breaker rated for 150 amps.


I tried in vein to find something to prove you wrong JM, but alas, I must concur.

E3606.3 Panelboards shall be protected on the supply side by not more than two main circuit breakers or two sets of fuses having a combined rating not greater than that of the panelboard.


--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738

Originally Posted By: jpope
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Robert Gallahorn wrote:
Does any one have a clue when the NEC required the 4 wire system to a sub panel of this nature?


The information I received from a reliable source is that this dates back before the 1935 edition of the NEC.


--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738

Originally Posted By: chorne
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Hi all,


If the service entrance enters more than 10' from the
panel, there must be a main disconnect on the outside.

Carla


Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Carla,


<cough, cough> Reference please!


--
Joe Myers
A & N Inspections, Inc.
http://anii.biz

Originally Posted By: jmyers
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Quote:
I tried in vein to find something to prove you wrong JM, but alas, I must concur.


Imagine that, I always wanted to be right about something. It finally happened! ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)


--
Joe Myers
A & N Inspections, Inc.
http://anii.biz

Originally Posted By: bbadger
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chorne wrote:
Hi all,

If the service entrance enters more than 10' from the
panel, there must be a main disconnect on the outside.

Carla


Hi Carla, This issue is another one that is very dependent on where you live.

Here is the NEC code section about this.

Quote:
230.70(A)(1)The service disconnecting means shall be installed at a readily accessible location either outside of a building or structure or inside nearest the point of entrance of the service conductors.


How far exactly is nearest the point of entrance? ![icon_confused.gif](upload://qv5zppiN69qCk2Y6JzaFYhrff8S.gif)

That's left up to the local enforcement authority.

I have a friend who is an electrical inspector in Salt Lake City Utah, in that area they do not allow any exposed service conductors inside. They will only allow back to back placement of the meter outside and the panel inside with a pipe nipple between them.

Here where I live 5' of service conductors is the length usually allowed and in your area it is certainly within reason to have 10'.

The best recommendation I can give HIs is to simply learn what the standard practice is in the area you work.

Here is more info from the NEC handbook for anyone interested.

Quote:
No maximum distance is specified from the point of entrance of service conductors to a readily accessible location for the installation of a service disconnecting means. The authority enforcing this Code has the responsibility for, and is charged with, making the decision as to how far inside the building the service-entrance conductors are allowed to travel to the main disconnecting means. The length of service-entrance conductors should be kept to a minimum inside buildings, because power utilities provide limited overcurrent protection and, in the event of a fault, the service conductors could ignite nearby combustible materials.
Some local jurisdictions have ordinances that allow service-entrance conductors to run within the building up to a specified length to terminate at the disconnecting means. The authority having jurisdiction may permit service conductors to bypass fuel storage tanks or gas meters and the like, permitting the service disconnecting means to be located in a readily accessible location. However, if the authority judges the distance as being excessive, the disconnecting means may be required to be located on the outside of the building or near the building at a readily accessible location that is not necessarily nearest the point of entrance of the conductors. See also 230.6 and Exhibit 230.15 for conductors considered to be outside a building.


While I am at it I might as well add that service entrance conductors either encased in cement or under a cement slab are considered 'outside' the building no mater how far inside the building they run.

Clear huh?


Quote:
230.6 Conductors Considered Outside the Building.
Conductors shall be considered outside of a building or other structure under any of the following conditions:

(1)Where installed under not less than 50 mm (2 in.) of concrete beneath a building or other structure

(2)Where installed within a building or other structure in a raceway that is encased in concrete or brick not less than 50 mm (2 in.) thick

(3)Where installed in any vault that meets the construction requirements of Article 450, Part III

(4)Where installed in conduit and under not less than 450 mm (18 in.) of earth beneath a building or other structure


I have worked on Boston brownstone apartment buildings where due to space limitations we have had to run 50'-60' of service conductor inside the building, in those cases we encased the raceway with concrete.


--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Bob,


Thanks for clearing that up. I was getting the feeling she was talking about her local area, not code requirement in the NEC.

Cheers!


--
Joe Myers
A & N Inspections, Inc.
http://anii.biz