Massachusetts Home Inspector, Changes in SOP

General Inspection Topics Legislation, Licensing, Ethics & Legal Issues
41

Hmmmmmm…Now JOE T…are you questioning the ABILITY of the Home Inspector to know the basics of an electrical inspection or the safety of one…at first the issue was safety…now you are moving into specific electrical training…MOST of which is covered by training schools like ITA and AHIT to name a few.

I have to ask because their is a BIG difference between a Basic Home Inspection and looking at the service panel versus something like I charge for called an Enhanced Electrical Inspection Report…which I charge extra for…

Are you saying that in order for HI’s to go into a panel…it is not only in regards to safety now…but Electrical Education practices?

Do they expect in order for a HI to be ’ Qualified Person " they need to know everything on a circuit to make sure it is not over 80%, to know every breaker in a panel is CTL or not… Damn Joe…THATS EXCESSIVE for a normal HI…

42

Enhanced Electrical Inspection Report

What’s does this type of inspection cover Paul?

43

Well…Joe it happens to of MY own making…no one needs to HOLD my hand in development of this program I use…

I happen to check EVERY PLUG…I happen to PULL off a large sample of the cover plates…I do a detailed summary of all connections within the panel…on a PDA notepad chart…and the client gets a summary of such…

I also happen to do what i call a system stress test…test the voltage drops, check the line resistance to each receptacle…I give detailed reports on the condition of the panel above the normal HI report…

I also pull many OTHER enclosures that the normal HI would not need to and so on…

I do things my license affords me to do…I also go more indepth into fixing the problems and how to do it…what they need to tell the electrician who will fix it…which normal HI’s should not…I give my opinion on it and put it in writing and so on.

Thats basically a summary of it…Why do you ask…How does it pertain to this topic…lets just say my enhanced electrical is enhanced…WHY because my license ALLOWS me to…

44

I also happen to use an AMP Probe on all circuits…regardless of the load on them…and report the results…also if the home I am inspecting is BX and so on…I do additional tests…and report the findings…

The enhanced report is basically going over and beyond the normal…checking every possible electrical issue…individually rather than in a sampling…I PROBE into the panel…yep…I get my FACE right in that puppy…

I have even been known to do things like LOOK for potential par. paths for detached garages…on one house the homeowner wanted me to verify the depth of the cable to his garage…so I pulled out the depth finder and did a report on that…anything they want electrical beyond the scope to me is enhanced…stepping beyond the normal HI sop means you better have the background to support it…I just so happen to have it…

45

I found this on a site that teaches about Home Inspection:

Would this be of use for training of a new inspector?

  • Service entrance wires and equipment
  • Main disconnect
  • Grounding equipment
  • Distribution panels
  • Distribution wiring
  • Fuses and breakers
  • Light switches and receptacles
  • Ground fault circuit interrupters

Practical examination: Hands-on inspection of electrical panels and components

PS: How can I get a copy of that PDF program? I just got a Palm TX PDA.

46

Paul:

When you inspect an apartment or office building supplied with 208Y/120 volts 3 phase four wire, have you ever discovered any NEUTRAL anywhere in the system where there was ZERO voltage present when using an Amprobe?

Do you think that a HI shouldn’t be able to use an amprobe?

I have been waiting to find out when I could attend the NACHI seminars you were planning on.

Are you planning on any soon?

PS: Will talk later, must go to Portland airport to fly into Seattle for next class Wednesday and Thursday, next week in Memphis, Mobile, and Chicago.

47

not a PDF program joe…a PDA program you probably already have on your unit…just simply notepad…

What I did was create the notepad with the areas I like…then beam it into my palm…I just PECK in the information as I find it…easy to make yourself really.

I guess one of the best books the HI’s could get that really covers all that info they need to know is by the same people that made the CodeCheck…I believe Mr. Casey with ITA helped make it…covers all those things and to be honest with you all those things are covered in their classes as well…While I think they should have been in more detail…heck what can you do with only 8 hours…Mastering Electricity takes a lifetime…

You will find they keep it VERY basic when doing the training in those areas…sometimes too much information is worse than too little information when a mind is learning this trade…

Basically…enhanced inspections are inspections that go beyond the scope of the allowed SOP…which is fine if you have an area of expert knowledge in…I dont for one minute expect HI’s to know all of it…

Since coming here to help members I have been amazed at what some HI’s know…Between Jeff, Gerry, Dave, David, Joe F, Ronald, Ray, Will and heck I am sure I will miss someone ( dont be offended )…but their knowledge of electrical basics is awesome for home inspectors…

Basically, I just happen to think the current training of HI’s in most everyday electrical inspections is fine…they are doing a good job and do not see why a board would limit their ability to report relevant information during a normal home inspection…

If the inspection warrants a HI to refer a Licensed Electrical Contractor then so be it…NOW…why do I always say Electrical Contractor and not just Electrician…

Electricians are a dime a dozen…anyone can get an electrical license if they study hard enough…however if you contact an electrical contractor per se…you know you got the small 10% of the best who ventured into business for themselves because they are movers and shakers…not to say the normal electrician cant look at anything…sure the electrical contractor is probably going to send out their fellow electrician…but I think it " Qualifies " it more than saying I will let my buddy the electrician down the street look at it…

Hope I explained my reasoning on that well enough…sometimes I wonder and it is easier to explain when talking…lol…versus typing.

48

under normal HI’s SOP they should not…Why do you think they should…if the concern is working in the panel…SHOULD they be expected under a situation where they do not have any advanced electrical training to use an AMP PROBE and still know what it means…

As for classes…To be honest with you Joe T…I do not think NACHI has an interest in me doing this…and I have to say I really could careless because i do not make my living as such…I only offer to help chapters…that is their choice to have me attend…I will only do this for NACHI chapters if I ever do any…at this point as I said…I am not worried about doing any…

My topics would NOT excite you Joe…they are basic…when it comes to teaching HI’s…I keep it very simple…no need to WOW them…I am not their to impress them with my licenses and knowledge…only to explain the basics they will see in the field and hope they walk away learning a little something more than they already know…I dont want them to be electricians when I am done…lord knows we have plenty of them…lol…

Also I do not teach HI’s with regards to 3 phase…but I will say Joe…lol…I have YET to find a 3 phase system balanced as it should be…lol…if that answers your question.

I know I have had to sit and balance panels before because of wrongly distributored phases and no panel schedules…not fun…but the PAY is good…lol

49

Joe,

We need to stay on point. I spoke at length with a representative with OSHA’s compliance unit in DC today. Home inspectors are not considered to be in the construction industry. Training for safety qualifications in general industry are quite vague. My conversations will continue tomorrow. Based on your questions to Paul, we are, once again, so far out in left field with regard to this, it’s not funny.

Let’s get back on point, here.

It appears to me that the “hands on” training you spoke of is, for the most part, overkill. Training in this area is warranted, for sure. The level you speak of, for safety’s sake is a bit much. While there is the danger of being shocked when taking off a panel cover, I submit that there are some very simple procedures that anyone with intelligence could and should follow, that will help ensure their safety.

We have skimmed over them before:

Visually examining the panel and all wires entering and exiting. Noting the types of cables, and if there are open knockouts, or cables entering the panel with no clamp or grommet. Looking for physical damage to the panel, the dead front cover, the breakers, the cables. Ensuring that there is no water dripping on the panel. Having examined the drop wire and meter pan looking for signs of possible water intrusion or cable damage. Looking for a ground, either as a ground rod and/or ground to the water meter. Checking that the screws used to hold the panel cover on look correct (no drywall screws, for example), and ensuring that there are no stray voltages energizing the panel (perhaps with a tic tracer).

I believe that after this, it is probably safe to remove the cover.

Would a home inspector who has the presence of mind and intelligence demonstrate that he/she is familiar with the workings of an energized electrical panel, show a respect for electrical shock hazards, demonstrate that they have a plan for checking before touching, etc? I’d say yes, they do.

Are they qualified? I think so, at least from a safety standpoint, which is what this discussion is about.

50

OOOO, hell, you two, it’s very simple.

Where your glasses and your gloves, use you tick tracer to check for current. If you have clearence, pull the cover.

Is there any double taps

Is there any open voids

Is there a problem with conductor size

Is the panel a Fu^&ed up mess

Is the panel undersized for the dwelling

Is there way too much conducter showing" at the lug"

Did you find the lowest common denomenator for service size???

If you have done this than I belive your job as a home inspector is done.

51

Todd that’s a ditto why go any further if it is that bad refer it to qualified liscensed electrician to evaulate and repair.

52

I think you are both missing the point of the conversation …the Mass Board wants to NOT allow Home Inspectors in the panel AT ALL…and this would effect the HI industry in that state and place one more peering HAND inside the process saying only Electricians can do this task…I am a electrician and chances are electricians WONT do the task unless they are called to fix something…HI’s are the first line of defense to finding issues and refering them to people like me…

The meeting is coming up and the point was that someone needs to express that HI’s are qualified to do their job as they have always been doing before the board passes some ruling saying only Electricians can peer into a panel and remove the cover…this conversation has gone from safety to electrical training and back again…

While I happen to BE an Electrician I am not a member of some " Lets Stick Together" type club…I think the HI’s do a fine job…sure I am partial to NACHI inspectors these days…lol…but thats a given…:slight_smile:

53

Hi to all,

I have been doing a little research on this issue with the 2 state boards in Massachusetts, this proposal is being touted by the Board of electrical inspectors,

It appears that the concept of Home Inspectors not being qualified persons, is a ploy by local electrical trainers to mandate excessive code based electrical training for home inspectors.

Yet again it appears that some factions within the electrical industry wish to corner the market in electrical training and evaluation, to the detriment of homeowner safety in Massachusetts. It is the position of ALL home inspectors and Home Inspection Organizations in Massachusetts that home inspectors are in the very best position to perform primary electrical evaluations of residential structures, and as such this proposal will not be supported by the Massachusetts Home Inspector board (BTW I am told it would take a change in the law to exclude home inspectors from this area).

Interestingly, both Joe Farsetta and myself have repeadedly asked for guideance for our members in this area, and up to press have still not recieved any help from our former electrical consultant.

It is also surprising that it is not recognised that ALL trainers of home inspectors spend a lot of time discussing electrical safety for inspectors evaluating energized panels, my own classes always strongly feature electrical safety (as demonstrated at the convention and other venues, and in this thread).

I would ask why Mr Tedesco has not included structured electrical safety training with the paid training that he has previously performed for NACHI chapters, I have personally sat in on 3 such events and have been disturbed by this ommision.

BTW, what the hell does 3 phase balance have to do with home inspection, this is a commercail distribution issue that has not bearing on home inspectors, I personally go to great lengths to explain to students how to recognise 3 phase power supply, and for them to defer any and all 3 phase circuitry to a licensed electrical contractor for evaluation.

Regards

Gerry

54

Gerry,

Tell us how you really feel!

I agree with everything you have stated. The notion of what “qualifies” and individual is my pet peeve in all of this. Always has been. The 3-phase question brought the same response from me. The last time I measured voltage across the neutral in three phase feed during a home inspection was… NEVER!

To Todd’s point, he’s repeating what we all already recognize, and he’s correct that it ain’t quantum physics.

If I were an outsider looking in, I’d look at the statistical data as to where most electrical accidents occur, under what conditions, at what time of day, at what voltages and currrent, and by whom. If it wasnt happening to Home Inspectors, I’d want to know why. The answer is pretty simple.

BTW, home inspectors are NOT considered to be in the construction industry. This came directly from OSHA’s office of compliance. Required safety training for electricians is different than what a home inspector requires. The rules are kind of loose in our profession, and the determination as to the probability of a shock hazard are actually extablished by the employer and employee.

This makes this area even more grey. As educators, we recognize the importance of being safe, providing useful information, being careful, and most of all using common sense.

55

Joe,
Completely agree. Chances are better for a Home Inspector to fall off a roof and get hurt or worse than being electrocuted and I haven’t seen a rush to make us all wear safety harnesses while on a roof. Generally, if one of us sees an unsafe electrical situation and/or equipment the closest we get to it is to take a photo and refer it to a licensed electrician. It is after all a visual inspection. Removing the cover is generally no more dangerous for the HI than for the homeowner who is around the thing day after day. I checked with the State of Florida about the classification of HI when I first got into the business and like you stated we are not considered part of the construction community. One of the reason we do not qualify for Workman’s Comp insurance. Like many other things in any profession, if you look long enough you find the real reasons for additional (new) requirements-MONEY to be made by someone. Should there be some level of safety training, yes but more often than not the “new” requirements border on the ridiculous.

56

Hi to all,

Joe, you should have seen what I posted and deleted last night, I decided to sleep on it and let the kinder, gentler side of me show through this morning.

Regards

Gerry

57

lol…You Electrician Haters…I’m Leavin…:slight_smile:

58

You should probably verify the ground too.:roll:

Maybe be sure clearences are OK as well. Sheesh what a half a$$ed list.

Who wrote this.:shock:

59

Electrician Haters…Piss on you all…:slight_smile:

60

hey…