Message from fellow inspector! Read it carefully!

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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Quote:
My name is John Cahill and I am on the inspector sub committee for Standards in Texas. I am researching a topic.

"Should an inspector turn off power before removing a panel box cover?"

An electrician was recently killed in Dallas when removing a cover. This has caused concern in several areas:

- I and no one else wants to get killed doing this
- There is a workman's compensation concern regarding employees.
- A trade organization might be held liable if they advise inspectors to pull covers without turning off power.
- A state agency that regulates inspectors might be held liable if they advise inspectors to pull covers without turning off power.

A manufacturer I contacted recommended same. All panel labels I have seen say turn off power. I know it is CYA but then I now know of a person who was killed!

Thanks,

John Cahill



--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: kmcmahon
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I tried to find more information on the story, but could find nothing on the search engines???



Wisconsin Home Inspection, ABC Home Inspection LLC


Search the directory for a Wisconsin Home Inspector

Originally Posted By: jpope
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My personal feeling?


Turning off the main breaker in most cases may give the inspector a false sense of security, and thus, make removing the cover even more dangerous.

The majority main breakers do not shut off power where the highest potential for electrocution exists - the point where the service conductors enter (are attached to) the main breaker.

These lugs are always energized even after the main breaker is shut off. The dead front cover, in many cases, can easily come in contact with these conductors. Replacing the cover is (IMHO) even more dangerous as we may inadvertently place the cover too deep into the panel box, increasing the potential for contact.

When the main breaker is left on, we may be less likely to take things for granted and continue to proceed with elevated caution.


--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738

Originally Posted By: rdawes
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Ditto, a search of the Dallas Morning News archives came up empty.


Originally Posted By: loconnor
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Dumb question…


Is there a reason the service panel manufacturers do not make the front cover from a plastic material?

Just thought this would eliminate or minimize the chances of shock or electrocution during the removal and replacing of the cover.


--
Larry
Western Michigan NACHI Chapter
http://www.w-michigan-nachi.org

"We confide in our strength
without boasting of it.
We respect that of others
without fearing it"
Thomas Jefferson

Originally Posted By: lungar
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Hi! Larry;


Great Idea!!! Here’s one I think would even be better, Make the front cover out of clear plastic so as the inspectors could just look thru the cover, that way no chance of getting ZAPPED at all. How’s that for a


SAFETY FIRST ITEM??? What do you think JOE T???


Regards Len


Originally Posted By: jcahill
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I would consider a panel shut off at the main safer than a fully energized board. A direct short can occur between a bus or breaker circuit with power on; it cannot if the power is off. No matter how aware one is , they cannot outrun a plasma arc. The key point is what safety measures does one take when removing the cover. Do you wear goggles etc. What should an employer tell his employee to do?


I too could not track the source officially but I know the contractor who hired the man and believe him. I have not revealed his name for ethical reasons. It would be nice to have a paper trail so if you find it let me know. I had a cable installer get killed on a home I inspected 15 years ago. The defect was on my report. I was depositioned by the insurance company and came out OK. The death was not in the paper; the victim lived in a rural area.

Plastic is a good idea but I suspect it has something to do with resistance to explosion and fire.


Originally Posted By: jpope
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jcahill wrote:
Plastic is a good idea but I suspect it has something to do with resistance to explosion and fire.


I'm sure you're correct here.

jcahill wrote:
What should an employer tell his employee to do?


I don't think it's a matter of telling them anything. I believe that if you are an employer, you have a responsibility to train your employees in proper safety procedures.

I am confident in my own abilities but I am certainly not arrogant. I have seen the results of arc blasts and electrocution first hand as well as in specialized training unrelated, however, to Home Inspection.

Having knowledge of the potential risks involved is the first step in protecting ourselves against the possibilities. It should never be taken for granted that an employee is sufficiently trained in proper procedures. Verification (however that may look) should be required for employees.


--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738

Originally Posted By: jcahill
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Yes, no one can "tell"me anything either. I hear you. However, call it tell, explain or train, what procedure should be taught regarding safety precautions when removing a panel box cover? Eye protection? gloves? Special shoes? Shutting off the power as the manufacturer label states? This is what I am looking for, a recommended safety procedure or a source I can research. There has got to be some formal guideline on this. Thanks.


Originally Posted By: rcooke
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I do not think a home inspector should be taking the main cover of . this is an electrician,s job .I am a retired Sparky and I do not take the cover off . I do believe this is exceeding the standards of Practice and if it is not then it should be .


My Opinion others might differ . Roy Cooke sr.


Originally Posted By: cmccann
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Talk about opening a can of worms. Wow…



NACHI MAB!

Originally Posted By: dvalley
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I. The inspector shall inspect:

A. The service line.
B. The meter box.
C. The main disconnect.
D. And determine the service amperage.
E. Panels, breakers and fuses.
F. The grounding.
G. The bonding.
H. A representative sampling of switches, receptacles, light fixtures, and test all GFCI receptacles and GFCI circuit breakers observed and deemed to be GFCI's during the inspection.
I. And report the presence of solid conductor aluminum branch circuit wiring if readily visible.
J. And report on any GFCI-tested receptacles in which power is not present, polarity is incorrect, the receptacle is not grounded, is not secured to the wall, the cover is not in place, the ground fault circuit interrupter devices are not properly installed or do not operate properly, or evidence of arcing or excessive heat is present.
K. The service entrance conductors and the condition of their sheathing.
L. The ground fault circuit interrupters with a GFCI tester.
M. And describe the amperage rating of the service.
N. And report the absence of smoke detectors.
O. Service entrance cables and report as in need of repair deficiencies in the integrity of the insulation, drip loop, or separation of conductors at weatherheads and clearances.

II. The inspector is not required to:

A. Insert any tool, probe or device into the main or sub-panels.
B. Operate electrical systems that are shut down.
C. Remove panel covers or dead front covers if not readily accessible.
D. Operate over current protection devices.
E. Operate non-accessible smoke detectors.
F. Measure or determine the amperage or voltage of the main service if not visibly labeled.
G. Inspect the alarm system and components.
H. Inspect the ancillary wiring.
I. Activate any electrical systems or branch circuits which are not energized.
J. Operate overload devices.
K. Inspect low voltage systems, electrical de-icing tapes, swimming pool wiring or any time-controlled devices.
L. Verify the continuity of the connected service ground.
M. Inspect private or emergency electrical supply sources, including but not limited to generators, windmills, photovoltaic solar collectors, or battery or electrical storage facility.
N. Inspect spark or lightning arrestors.
O. Conduct drop voltage calculations.
P. Determine the accuracy of breaker labeling.


--
David Valley
MAB Member

Massachusetts Certified Home Inspections
http://www.masscertified.com

"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go."

Originally Posted By: rcooke
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I. The inspector shall inspect:

A. The service line.
B. The meter box.
C. The main disconnect.


Where does it say I must take the cover of the main feed . The electric code in Canada states only electrician shall go there and there is a movement to stop haveing inspectors removing the panel cover. How about when there is an inside meter and the electric supply authority has a seal on the disconect do you cut the seal .
Roy Cooke sr.


Originally Posted By: jpeck
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dvalley wrote:
Roy,

You...as a NACHI member must observe our SOP. If an inspector refuses to remove panel covers then how the heck can an electrical inspection be considered complete?![](upload://7GBzTMRZc7nmxEH37MrCJS8m63s.gif)


David,

You must keep reading. It's all there, if only you would read it.

3.2. Exclusions:

B. Dismantle, open, or uncover any system or component.
C. Enter or access any area which may, in the opinion of the inspector, to be unsafe or risk personal safety.

RE: B. To access the interior of an electrical panel, one MUST DISMANTLE, OPEN, UNCOVER, (i.e., remove the dead front cover) the electrical panel enclosure, which includes the cover.

RE: C. If Roy deems that is unsafe and puts himself at risk, and trust me, THAT IS RISKY AND UNSAFE, then he IS NOT required to do it.

Roy has two outs. He DOES NOT have to remove the panel cover.

To REQUIRE an inspector to do so would put NACHI at risk of assuming ALL liability for that inspectors SAFETY, HEALTH, and LIFE, not to mention any property damage which may result in that action.


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: evandeven
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Quote:
Posted: Dec 19, 2004 11:40 PM Post subject:




Dumb question...

Is there a reason the service panel manufacturers do not make the front cover from a plastic material?

Just thought this would eliminate or minimize the chances of shock or electrocution during the removal and replacing of the cover.


Here is one:
[ Image: http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/p/plasticpanel.jpg ]
The whole panel is plastic.
Here is a warning on the same panel:
[ Image: http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/w/warning.jpg ]


--
Eric Van De Ven
Owner/Inspector
Magnum Inspections Inc.
I get paid to be suspicious when there is nothing to be suspicious about!
www.magnuminspections.com

Originally Posted By: Brian A. Goodman
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Personally I can’t imagine not inspecting inside a panel, when I think of all of the horrors I’ve found there. The idea that you need to be an electrician to remove a panel cover is very over-the-top on safety in my opinion. It just isn’t that hard or dangerous. The odds of getting killed in a car wreck on the way to the job must be many times that.


The SOP my state adopted is clear on this point. "The inspector shall inspect the interior components of service panels and subpanels." So if you're in a state with an SOP in law, you have to go by whatever it says, regardless.

The potential liability question is kind of interesting.



Originally Posted By: dvalley
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open the panel cover according to our SOP, I specifically stated…


Quote:
If an inspector refuses to remove panel covers then how the heck can an electrical inspection be considered complete?


This was a question with a question mark...if only you would understand my question

I then highlighted (in red) the top reasons why a panel cover should be opened. Without opening the panel cover, the items in red are almost impossible to report on.

Brian,

I'm in the same boat. I've seen too many disasters waiting to happen inside SE panels. I manage to get access to every SE panel I come across, except of course if there's no safe way to remove the cover. There have been instances where I had no possible way to open the cover.
I then, disclaim all wiring inside the panel. I recommend an Electrician gain access to the inside of the panel for further evaluation.

You stated...
Quote:
The SOP my state adopted is clear on this point. "The inspector shall inspect the interior components of service panels and subpanels." So if you're in a state with an SOP in law, you have to go by whatever it says, regardless.


Well here you go...Massachusetts SOP is as follows...

6.05 System: Electrical: 3) The Inspector is not required to:

(e) Dismantle any electrical device or control other than to remove the covers of the main and sub-distribution panels, if readily accessible and not painted in place.



--
David Valley
MAB Member

Massachusetts Certified Home Inspections
http://www.masscertified.com

"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go."

Originally Posted By: loconnor
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Eric V.


Thank you for the post and photos.

I guess that shoots my understanding that plastic is non-conductive!


--
Larry
Western Michigan NACHI Chapter
http://www.w-michigan-nachi.org

"We confide in our strength
without boasting of it.
We respect that of others
without fearing it"
Thomas Jefferson

Originally Posted By: loconnor
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



So does any one inspect the inside of panels wearing electrical gloves, face shield and use a rubber mat to stand on??


If so, has any one had comments from clients?


--
Larry
Western Michigan NACHI Chapter
http://www.w-michigan-nachi.org

"We confide in our strength
without boasting of it.
We respect that of others
without fearing it"
Thomas Jefferson

Originally Posted By: tallen
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I wear 00 gloves and safety glasses. No mat though.


A few comments about the gloves. None about the glasses.


--
I have put the past behind me,
where , however, it now sits, making rude remarks.

www.whiteglovehomeinspections.net

30 Oct 2003-- 29 Nov2005