Originally Posted By: Dave Nix This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Hi Everyone,
I live in Ohio and am wondering if there are any Ohio Home Inspectors here at your forum. If so, the following is addressed to them;
I have been reading the posts here about Home Inspectors opening panels, taking voltage readings amp readings visually and sometimes physically. Inspectors also seem to offer a written report about the condition of the electrical service equipment, the proper use and installation of everything from breakers to wire types and sizes.
I am guessing that as part of your service you offer this information and your findings to your client as to to the electrical installation safety and code compliance of the system and make recommendations as to their course of action, if any.
Originally Posted By: jpope This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Regardless of which state an inspector practices in, there are certain standards to which we should abide. For the most part, your impression is correct, however, current and voltage measurements are not a part of our inspections nor are codes (for the most part).
We do not check for code compliance. Ours is a visual inspection only with regards to the service equipment. Our main concern is the safety and integrity of the system based on our visual examination.
-- Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738
Originally Posted By: roconnor This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Dave Nix wrote:
I am guessing that as part of your service you offer this information and your findings to your client as to to the electrical installation safety and code compliance of the system and make recommendations as to their course of action, if any.
In addition to Jeff's and Bob's comments, also keep in mind that a lot of the discussions here go well beyond what would be reported for information and education only. IMHO, the ones who do go well beyond the standards (SOP) in how they conduct an inspection and report things could be on a VERY slippery slope. It could also violate state licensing laws.
Some electricians even get touchy about an HI taking off a panel cover [ and I think an HI needs training even to do that]. But beyond a visual inspection an HI SHOULD NOT BE TOUCHING ANYTHING inside that panel. I tend to think an HI has to also take a few receptacle covers off just as a reality check, without touching anything inside the box. Many here actually disagree with me there, and will not even do that (yes, that would include you Jeff) because it goes beyond the SOP.
And reporting anything as a code violation is a big no-no for an HI. However, codes are used as a general guide for what might be a "safety concern" or possible "safety hazard". Beyond that requires professional evaluation.
There is another recent post about measuring current on neutral wires, and several of the replys were along the lines of ... "what are you doing measuring current?" ... I agree with those comments.
Just my 2-nickles
-- Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee
I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
Originally Posted By: rjones1 This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Dave,
I agree with Jeff. The integrity of the system is what I try to focus on.
I do pull the covers off, if they are accessible, and look around for aluminum wires and a few other items. I also scan all the breakers/fuse holders, and connection screws with my digital thermometer to check for hot spots. It only takes a minute or two, and can point to potential problems if I see a spike of several degrees in one location. The theory is that loose connections under screws or inside devices are likely to give off more heat due to increased resistance.
(digression)
I once picked up a soon-to-fail light switch in my own kitchen by using the thermometer. As I recall, it was about 7? or 8? warmer than the surrounding wall. I replaced the switch and took it to the garage for destructive examination.  Sure enough, one of the contacts inside was burnt, and very near total failure (or worse). The switch was about 10 years old. I estimate that it had been cycled between 20,000 and 25,000 times.
The point is, I don't check for code or meter the wires, but I use what simple tools I have (my eyes and my thermometer) to locate safety and integrity issues within the panel.
-- Rich Jones
General Inspections, Inc.
Perrysburg, OH
Originally Posted By: jmyers This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Dave,
You have hit sort of a sore spot with inspectors, some take the panel cover off, other prefer not to take the panel off.
I would agree that the inspector is looking for safety issues with the electric panel and those safety issues are based on, or around the codes. While some inspectors do quote codes, I personally shy away from that route, as codes are open to individual interpretation and those disputes can, and often do have a tendency to be pretty time consuming and costly in terms of lost time working, which I am not being paid for.
On this message board we discuss many things to further our knowledge and understanding of electrical installation and the different interpretation of the codes which apply to those installations.
While the association that we practice under sets the minimum standard by which an electrical installation is inspected, many inspectors go beyond the standards of practice and are more thorough and detailed in many aspects of the home inspection, not just the electrical installation.
I personally tend to spend much of my time inspecting the components in the house which will be most costly to the client(s) in terms of money, or loss of life. When things go bad electrically, people tend to die which is why many here spend so much time on the electrical part of the installation.
We seem to be at a disadvantage here, Bob B knows you but the rest of us here don't. Would you care to share with us a little about yourself and what brings you to our forum?
Originally Posted By: Dave Nix This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Hi Everyone,
Thanks for your replies!
My background is one of a commercial/industrial/residential electrician over the past 20 years. I know Bob from the other electrical forums and especially from mine where he is the Moderator. Bob and I have never met face to face (not including photos!) but have learned and shared our electrical and code knowledge for more than a year now. I admire Bob for his tenacity and his willingness to share.
The reason I have joined your board is to help where I can, learn when I can and enjoy the company. I often read the posts and have several NACHI members that visit my forum and participate there.
Recently, I have read several posts here where the HI's have asked questions about electrical systems and especially panelboards. It appears that a common practice is to remove the panelboard cover to inspect the breakers, conductors and look for code violations relating to the afore mentioned items. This has drawn my curiosity as to the safety of the HI when this type of inspection is performed.
The reason it concerns me is two fold. First, according to the safety codes that apply to everyone and in particular to persons working in or around electrical equipment while it is energized. These nationally recognized standards are not generally known to most HI's and I am concerned that they are placing themselves in harms way when they do open these panelboards and especially when any tools or meters are used inside.
Secondly, the reason I posted for Ohio HI's is to see if they new that in this state it is actually against the law to perform an electrical inspection without having an Electrical Safety Inspector Certificate.
Please understand that my intentions are in the interests of safety and education. I certainly would not want to hear about an HI being shocked or burned from a arc flash because he didn't know the hazzards involved when removing a panelboard cover or working inside with live equipement.
To this end, I offer my experience and best advice whenever needed.
Originally Posted By: jpope This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Dave,
Thanks for the reply. I'm sure I can speak for most of us (if not all of us) and say that your opinions and experience are welcome and appreciated.
It's interesting to here of your state law and leads me to wonder, what would be the "technical definition" of an electrical inspection requiring that type of certification?
Speaking for myself, I remove panel covers but I NEVER put tools, meters, testers or fingers into them. Only the shine from my flashlight.
Removing the cover, in my opinion, is the most dangerous part of our inspection. I take great care to see if I can determine whether or not it's energized before removing and if it is in risk of coming in contact with the conductors.
To be quite honest, I hate electricity. It scares the begeesis out of me. I think that helps keep me safe 
-- Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738
Originally Posted By: Dave Nix This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Hi Jeff,
You are welcome.
Here is what the law says:
Quote:
Ohio Revised Code
3783.01. Definitions.
As used in sections 3783.01 to 3783.08, inclusive, of the Revised Code:
(A) "Electrical safety inspector" means a person who is certified as provided in Chapter 3783. of the Revised Code.
(B) The "practice of electrical inspection" includes any ascertainment of compliance with the Ohio building code, or the electrical code of a political subdivision of this state by a person, who, for compensation, inspects the construction and installation of electrical conductors, fittings, devices, and fixtures for light, heat or power services equipment, or the installation, alteration, replacement, maintenance, or repair of any electrical wiring and equipment that is subject to any of the aforementioned codes.
3783.06. Prohibition.
No person shall engage in the practice of electrical inspection in this state unless he is the holder of a certificate of competency as an electrical safety inspector issued under Chapter 3783. of the Revised Code. Any person practicing or offering to practice electrical inspection shall show proof of his certification upon request as provided by rules of the board of building standards.
Electricity still scares me at times! Usually right after I realize that something is energized when I thought it wasn't!
Originally Posted By: Dave Nix This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Hi Mike,
Yes, I agree.
I have NO problem with Home Inspectors what so ever. I beleive their services are as valuable as anyone's.
I believe with the ever increasing use of the internet and forums such as this one and others, we all stand to benefit from the wealth of good information and technical expertise presented daily. Just think back about two years ago and the lack of interactive sites and participation. Those of us that desire to know and learn have multiplied tremendously which equates to the overall professionalism rising and expanding throughout our country. I also believe this will result in better written codes and safety standards. Our best defense for ignorence is education. Education will result in a better life for all of us.
Originally Posted By: dbowers This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Thats a real interesting post, and the quote from ??? is something that in 26 years of being a code inspector, home builder, home inspector, mechanical engineer, and factory rep for an HVAC manufacturer that I’ve never seen in the states I’ve lived or worked in (Kansas, Missouri, Texas, Oklahoma, Colorado, Florida, Arkansas, Iowa, Nebraska, North Carolina).
Taking that post at face value - an air conditioning technician for example could not remove a panel cover, install a new breaker, check out an old breaker, pull out a bad breaker or fuse and replace it, check the amp draw on an electric heat strip, etc, etc without that special certification.
You and I both know that would not happen. If thats the rules where you live so be it, but we both know that it would be ignored by almost every trade or speciality contractor there.
Originally Posted By: jfarsetta This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Quote:
Secondly, the reason I posted for Ohio HI's is to see if they new that in this state it is actually against the law to perform an electrical inspection without having an Electrical Safety Inspector Certificate.
Let's look at the law, and what is pertains to...
Ohio Revised Code
3783.01. Definitions.
As used in sections 3783.01 to 3783.08, inclusive, of the Revised Code:
(A) "Electrical safety inspector" means a person who is certified as provided in Chapter 3783. of the Revised Code. We are not performing electrical safety inspections. It is a home inspection.
(B) The "practice of electrical inspection" includes any ascertainment of compliance with the Ohio building code, or the electrical code of a political subdivision of this state by a person, who, for compensation, inspects the construction and installation of electrical conductors, fittings, devices, and fixtures for light, heat or power services equipment, or the installation, alteration, replacement, maintenance, or repair of any electrical wiring and equipment that is subject to any of the aforementioned codes. Home inspections are NOT code compliance inspections.
3783.06. Prohibition.
No person shall engage in the practice of electrical inspection in this state unless he is the holder of a certificate of competency as an electrical safety inspector issued under Chapter 3783. of the Revised Code. Any person practicing or offering to practice electrical inspection shall show proof of his certification upon request as provided by rules of the board of building standards. Refer back to the definition of an electrical inspection and the practice of electrical inspection , as stated in paragraph B
I think the HI is in the clear with regard to this practice, as defined within Ohio's written statute because: (1) We are not performing electrical safety inspections, and (2) we do not inspect for electrical code compliance.
We're legally speaking apples and oranges guys. This is an easy argument to win... That's NOT to say tat removing the panel cover isnt one of the more dangerous things we do, however...
-- Joe Farsetta
Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."
Originally Posted By: Bob Badger This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Dave Nix wrote:
I admire Bob for his tenacity and his willingness to share.
Thank you Dave,  I do not think I have ever been called a stubborn SOB so nicely.
Seriously, many of the members that frequent this board ask some great questions and really want to learn more about what they see on a day to day basis.
I have seen very few posts that lead me to believe that the members here are doing anything they should not be.
Of course they are all individuals and out of a group you will always have a few renegades.
IMO the HIs provide a valuable service, looking at what they do find and report I am glad they are out there doing what the do.
IMO the whole point is electrical safety not a turf war.
If anything the HIs get ECs more work correcting the problems they find.
In my area once a building is complete the electrical system will never be looked at again, a home inspector in some ways has more influence on homeowners than the city or town inspector.
Originally Posted By: roconnor This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
jfarsetta wrote:
I think the HI is in the clear with regard to this practice, as defined within Ohio's written statute because: (1) We are not performing electrical safety inspections, and (2) we do not inspect for electrical code compliance.
I think an HI quoting codes to a client is on a very slippery slope in general, and looks like they would also be violating state law in Ohio and other states with similar laws.
jfarsetta wrote:
... That's NOT to say that removing the panel cover isnt one of the more dangerous things we do, however...
I tend to think it's the MOST dangerous thing an HI does ... 
Dave Nix wrote:
These nationally recognized standards are not generally known to most HI's and I am concerned that they are placing themselves in harms way when they do open these panelboards and especially when any tools or meters are used inside.
Are ya talking about OSHA standards? And IMHO an HI should NOT be putting anything inside a pannel ... no fingers, tools, etc ... NOTHING ... 
Dave Nix wrote:
Please understand that my intentions are in the interests of safety and education. I certainly would not want to hear about an HI being shocked or burned from a arc flash because he didn't know the hazzards involved when removing a panelboard cover or working inside with live equipement.
To this end, I offer my experience and best advice whenever needed.
Dave ... take a look as this topic on panel inspection safety, and see if ya have anything to add ... CLICK HERE
-- Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee
I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
Originally Posted By: Dave Nix This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Dan,
Quote:
Taking that post at face value - an air conditioning technician for example could not remove a panel cover, install a new breaker, check out an old breaker, pull out a bad breaker or fuse and replace it, check the amp draw on an electric heat strip, etc, etc without that special certification.
No. This is what the Ohio Revised Code reads:
Quote:
The "practice of electrical inspection" includes any ascertainment of compliance with the Ohio building code, or the electrical code.....
Joe,
Quote:
I think the HI is in the clear with regard to this practice, as defined within Ohio's written statute because: (1) We are not performing electrical safety inspections, and (2) we do not inspect for electrical code compliance.
My point exactly.
Bob,
Quote:
IMO the HIs provide a valuable service, looking at what they do find and report I am glad they are out there doing what the do.
IMO the whole point is electrical safety not a turf war.
I agree.
Quote:
I have NO problem with Home Inspectors what so ever. I beleive their services are as valuable as anyone's.
and
Quote:
Please understand that my intentions are in the interests of safety and education. I certainly would not want to hear about an HI being shocked or burned from a arc flash because he didn't know the hazzards involved when removing a panelboard cover or working inside with live equipement.
Originally Posted By: Mike Parks This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
"Taking that post at face value - an air conditioning technician for example could not remove a panel cover, install a new breaker, check out an old breaker, pull out a bad breaker or fuse and replace it, check the amp draw on an electric heat strip, etc, etc without that special certification. "
Dan
It is because of this the law was rewriiten to 'allow' HVAC guys to do this.
Originally Posted By: jmyers This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Dave,
Welcome to our forum, I hope you will find your visits pleasant and informational. 
It is always nice to have another educated electrician around.
Maybe I could talk you into coming over to my place and inspecting the electric panel for me! Well, maybe not...I have to run downstairs and clean it up a little first!
