Last one for the night,
I see the double tap neutral that I’m calling out *in red, but I’m drawing a mind blank with it being so late on the neutrals and grounds sharing a lug… do you guys call it out with neutrals and grounds sharing a lug on the bar? *see green I feel like code say’s you cant, but it happens any way… also again this is the main panel, I do understand that they cant happen on the sub panel.
thank you.
One neutral and one ground can generally share a lug as long as they aren’t from the same circuit… tracing back to see if they are on the same circuit is near impossible on most panels in my experience. I usually just trust it’s done right since tracing every circuit is well outside our purpose.
The 2+ neutrals under a single lug is wrong most times and I do call it out. According to some old cranky sparkys I’ve talked to there were some panels years ago that allowed two. It’s one of those things that I go with the herd on. 20 years ago barely any HIs I talked to called it… now 90%+ do.
On edit - looking at your pics again some of that work looks pretty “hack-ish”. I’d probably write up the multiple neutrals and recommended verifying no neutral/ground lugs are on the same circuit… let the electrician sort it out… while being paid handsomely to do so.
Yes, a double tap is a double tap.
Double tapped neutral - Specific Inspection Topics / Electrical Inspections - InterNACHI®️ Forum
Technically, each neutral should terminate under its own lug and not share that lug with any other conductor, as far as I understand it.
The neutral can only terminate with a single conductor in each hole. The EGC’s may allow up to 3 in each hole depending on the listing of the neutral bar.
408.41 Grounded Conductor Terminations. Each grounded conductor shall terminate within the panelboard in an individual terminal that is not also used for another conductor.
Exception: Grounded conductors of circuits with parallel conductors shall be permitted to terminate in a single terminal if the terminal is identified for connection of more than one conductor.
Neutrals cannot share the hole with any other conductors regardless of the same circuit or not. RM has posted the requirements below.
Is that Hawaii/Oregon local codes or ???
IMO, (and confirmed by the other posts here), most everything you claimed is wrong and potentially dangerous!
So sorry if the truth hurts.
Thanks guys, will right it up as a double tap, and that each should have there own lug, unless its two grounds then of course they can share a lug based on gauged of wire.
Personally, I would not offer that additional information unless you are addressing it as a concern in that specific panel. Not all panels are rated the same, and what is allowed varies by panel and Manufacturer. Some panels allow two conductors, some allow three. I seem to remember a time I ran across a single conductor requirement, but that’s been a while. That being said, I inspect OLD homes all the time, so I cannot rule out seeing anything, ever!!
Must-Read-Label-In-Panel… always… for specific information!
Correct …
Just info for me
Thanks again everyone
Was there a time period neutrals and grounds from separate circuits were permitted under a single lug?
always seems like the writing in the panel is always covered up by a rats nest of wires…
No, it’s has always been prohibited by the listing of the neutral bar in the panel. Problem is that no one really knew or cared to look at the listing. The 2002 NEC added a new section with the language that appears in post #5 to explicitly tell users of the NEC that it is not permitted.
No,I don’t believe so, because if I remember correctly, it was adressed in the “manufacturer’s installation instructions” and the later it was clarified in the NEC as each grounded conductor needing its own termination.
What goes through your mind when you see that?
Thanks… yeah, I’ve seen thousands of panels wired that way and remember at a CE conference once a very experienced electrician only talking about making sure a neutral and ground under the same lug aren’t on the same circuit.
I almost think that would be worse. If the neutral and ground belong to the same circuit, and you are working on that circuit, it would be less likely to cause any issues if you are disconnecting the ground for that circuit along with the neutral, assuming one has the power off when working on the circuit.
If the ground belongs to a different circuit, you would be making an unrelated circuit less safe by disconnecting its grounding conductor.
There might be a valid reason for that electrician’s viewpoint, I’m just thinking out loud and I am not an electrician.
Yeah… Laziness!
Sparky’s typically look at this as a “new installation” concern. Basically, it saves them time to “lug them together” when wiring the panel versus separating and routing TWO conductors!
Unfortunately, all work done after the fact tends to duplicate what the original install exhibits… especially considering that over the decades, these “shortcuts” get passed on down the line, and everyone thinks it is the correct way to do it, because that is how they were trained to do it!
IIRC, his point was since the ground is a backup of sorts for the neutral they shouldn’t both be disabled by a single failure.
2 things and take them with a grain of salt… Electrician could have taken time to put the wires in nicer, and another is the box manufacture almost wants the labels/writing covered up so you have to get an electrician or void the warranty maybe ?
