Neutrals ganged together

Archive Public Archive
21

Originally Posted By: jonofrey
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Did a builder warranty inspection yesterday and saw this at the panel


http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/DSC00191.JPG

Since the builders super was on site, I asked if he could get a sparky out to remove the cover. Sparky arrived in about five minutes. Inside the panel were loose hot leads wire nutted together. Multiple neutrals ganged on the bus and AC condensers served by 60 amp breakers.

I used a sniffer on the panel but watched in awe as the sparky just went right up to the panel, removed the cover and proceeded to stick both hands in there. I was able to get him to reterminate all of the neutrals and change out the over voltage protection for the AC's. Wire nuts was a different story.

When I pointed out the ganged neutrals, he jumped right on it, no questions asked. Feel the power of the BOARD! P.S. - I was relieved that I didn't have remove this guy from any circuit.

http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/DSC00194.JPG

--
Inspection Nirvana!

We're NACHI. Get over it.

22

Originally Posted By: roconnor
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.




Sounds like a marketing slogan for Nick ... ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif) ... Glad we could help out ...

--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

23

Originally Posted By: Dennis Bozek
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


I did not read every post on this subject so I hope my input will not be redundant. Anyway, placing more than one neutral under a lug is a double lug. Even if it is not a “hot” wire, a neutral is a current carrying conductor and therefore cannot be double tapped or double lugged for the same results that a hot wire would give will indeed be the same for a neutral wire. There seems to be plenty of open terminals at the neutral bus in the picture…so why not write it up as a neutral quadruple tap and recommend a sparky terminates these wires as they must be.

–
This information has been edited and reviewed for errors by your favorite resident sparky.

24

Originally Posted By: rmeyers
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Quote:
408.21 Grounded Conductor Terminations. Each grounded conductor shall terminate within the panelboard in an individual terminal that is not also used for another conductor.


Followed by:

Quote:
Exception: Grounded conductors of circuits with parallel conductors shall be permitted to terminate in a single terminal if the terminal is identified for connection of more than one conductor.
![icon_confused.gif](upload://qv5zppiN69qCk2Y6JzaFYhrff8S.gif)

This exception would appear to me to acknowledge that multiple neutrals in a single terminal are allowed if in accordance with the "listing/labeling" of the panelboard as I believe Jerry was trying to point out.

Just a few additional comments, for what it's worth!

Happy Thanksgiving To All!!!

--
Russ Meyers
25

Originally Posted By: pdacey
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


I’m thankful for all of the help that all of the veteran HIs provide to the new guys like myself. Thank you.



NACHI, the gift that keeps on giving.

--
Slainte!

Patrick Dacey
[email protected]
TREC # 6636
www.southwestinspections.com

26

Originally Posted By: roconnor
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Russ … I added the term “neutral” in parentheses to the NEC quote for clarity … I edited that to add brackets so that’s more obvious.


The exception in 408.21 doesnt apply. It generally refers to very large feeders/sub-feeders over 200A where there is an advantage/need to run sets of two individual wires (called "parallel conductors" or "parallel sets") instead of a larger single conductor. They must be joined at the ends to form a single conductor, which is essentially one wire in two parts, each AWG 1/0 or larger per code. See NEC-310.4 or IRC-3306.6 ... and IRC Table E3503.1 has some examples.

Section 408.21 is new for the 2002 NEC, which I understand was put there specifically to tighten up the code and prohibit neutral double lugs (I don't consider parallel conductor terminations "double lugs"). That was previously only covered by a UL panelboard listing/labeling standard, which was sometimes debated. I think thats what Jerry was referring too.

With the 2002 NEC it's crystal clear double lug neutrals are not allowed ... no way around that.

Hope that helps, and a Happy Thanksgiving to all.

--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

27

Originally Posted By: jonofrey
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


rmeyers wrote:

John O,

Just a friendly word of caution! Be careful directing the work of a contractor on the job. Was that the head sparky or an employee that responded to your request? If an employee, and his boss can show that you directed him in error you may get a bill for his time. Worse yet if he was not the employee that should have been performing the work and he gets injured, you may be paying a workmans comp. claim. Just my paranoid reaction! ![icon_cry.gif](upload://r83gSGUzNOacIqpjVReDwcR83xZ.gif)


Hi Russell, I hear you on that one and agree. The Super was the guy that I asked to get a sparky out on it. I was impressed in the speed with which he reacted. Turns out he was studying to be a HI.

--
Inspection Nirvana!

We're NACHI. Get over it.
28

Originally Posted By: JIM WALKER
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


There was no reason for the neutrals being ganged here,plenty of open lugs.It is a violation and electricians know what could happen if they are on differant phases (major damage or fire if they come loose from the terminal and touch each other)


If this is a sub panel the neutrals and grounds must be seperated,add ground bar


The overspray needs dealt with and if cleaning fluid is used the warranty is gone,not to mention it is a violation.Overspray should be blamed on the plasterer or painter.It is part of there job to protect items that are not to be sprayed.Often sparky puts a cover over it and he should,but sometimes others take them off.

–
JIM WALKER


Tampa FL.


[email protected]

29

Originally Posted By: Joe Tedesco
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.





Here is the NEC rule that supports the code violation:

110.12 Mechanical Execution of Work

Quote:
(C) Integrity of Electrical Equipment and Connections.

Internal parts of electrical equipment, including busbars, wiring terminals, insulators, and other surfaces, shall not be damaged or contaminated by foreign materials such as paint, plaster, cleaners, abrasives, or corrosive residues.

There shall be no damaged parts that may adversely affect safe operation or mechanical strength of the equipment such as parts that are broken; bent; cut; or deteriorated by corrosion, chemical action, or overheating.


This rule makes it clear that only one grounded conductor is allowed uunder each screw:

Quote:
408.21 Grounded Conductor Terminations.

Each grounded conductor shall terminate within the panelboard in an individual terminal that is not also used for another conductor.


--
Joe Tedesco
30

Originally Posted By: pdacey
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Thank you Mr. Walker and Mr. Tedesco for your input. It is very much welcome and appreciated.


Also, welcome to the board!

--
Slainte!

Patrick Dacey
[email protected]
TREC # 6636
www.southwestinspections.com

31

Originally Posted By: JIM WALKER
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


When making up a panel i tell my men to do neutrals first and if possible keep them on the side that would be neutral bar if it was a sub panel.Looks neater and should we run out of terminals for the grounds then they could be grouped up to 3 of same size.Have often seen neutrals doubled up on service calls,a very unsafe thing to do and i suggest they be fixed.If one runs out of netral terminals it is easy to fix by adding an extra bar.Please think of what could happen if that low voltage door bell wire get’s activated with 120 volts and the person ringing it is wet standing in a puddle of water.

–
JIM WALKER


Tampa FL.


[email protected]

32

Originally Posted By: Joe Tedesco
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


HELLO


Please be sure to understand the item related to 3 grounding conductors under one terminal is referring to the bare wire (equipment grounding conductor) in some cases the instructions on the cover of the cabinet cover will make it clear that up to 2 of the same size are allowed under one terminal, I have not seen permission to put 3 under one terminal.

The white wires are the grounded conductors "neutral" and they can use only one terminal for one conductor.

Answers or replies to questions here should be supported using specific references! I try to do this to make it clear.

![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)

--
Joe Tedesco

33

Originally Posted By: joetedesco
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Joe Tedesco wrote:
![](upload://uE6mjudZh4aeEe77N4ynwVa2nCK.jpeg)

Here is the NEC rule that supports the code violation:

110.12 Mechanical Execution of Work

Quote:
(C) Integrity of Electrical Equipment and Connections.

Internal parts of electrical equipment, including busbars, wiring terminals, insulators, and other surfaces, shall not be damaged or contaminated by foreign materials such as paint, plaster, cleaners, abrasives, or corrosive residues.

There shall be no damaged parts that may adversely affect safe operation or mechanical strength of the equipment such as parts that are broken; bent; cut; or deteriorated by corrosion, chemical action, or overheating.


This rule makes it clear that only one grounded conductor is allowed under each screw:

Quote:
408.21 Grounded Conductor Terminations.

Each grounded conductor shall terminate within the panelboard in an individual terminal that is not also used for another conductor.


Further discussion seems appropriate since we have many new people here.

--
Joe Tedesco, Massachusetts
Home Inspector Provider
www.joetedesco.org
[email protected]

www.nachi.org/tedesco.htm
www.nachi.org/tedesco2.htm
www.nachi.org/illinoislicense.htm
www.nachi.org/jtarticles.htm
34

Originally Posted By: dandersen
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Trying not to drift, however:


How do we handle this information?
I see neutral and ground wires under the same terminal screw all the time!

1. New construction: I can see calling attention to this and recommend change. The subcontractor is on site or down the street as it may be.

2. Existing construction: is this code enforcement by recommending the panel being reworked?

How can we recommend repair without citing electrical code?
I have been blasted several times on this BB for citing the code.

I expect that 99% of the time the reply from the new construction contractor is "it pass code"!

If I can find a deficiency, such as an overheating connection or a voltage drop or improper impedance on the neutral/ground I have something to work with. However just a visual observance of these conditions?[/b]

35

Originally Posted By: joetedesco
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


http://www.ul.com/regulators/index_main.cfm


David, look here and if you want to hear why, call UL at 1-800.595.9844

--
Joe Tedesco, Massachusetts
Home Inspector Provider
www.joetedesco.org
[email protected]

www.nachi.org/tedesco.htm
www.nachi.org/tedesco2.htm
www.nachi.org/illinoislicense.htm
www.nachi.org/jtarticles.htm

36

Originally Posted By: lkage
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


dandersen wrote:


How do we handle this information?
I see neutral and ground wires under the same terminal screw all the time!

1. New construction: I can see calling attention to this and recommend change. The subcontractor is on site or down the street as it may be.

2. Existing construction: is this code enforcement by recommending the panel being reworked?

How can we recommend repair without citing electrical code?
I have been blasted several times on this BB for citing the code.


It can be even more confusing when different jurisdictions are operating under different (older than 2002 NEC) codes.

--
"I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him."
Galileo Galilei
37

Originally Posted By: dandersen
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Thanks Joe,


I agree.

However, home inspection sop and criteria seems to be interpreted differently across the board. I was looking for a little Home Inspection dialogue as to how these issues are handled when discovered.

I dislike butting heads with the municipal code department, but have no qualms in doing so.

I always advise my clients that the municipal code department is the one that issues the occupancy permit and that some policies must be adhered to until they take ownership of the property.

I can take pitchers all day long with neutrals and grounds on the same busbar, in the same hole etc. "that's the way we do it here"! "Where are you from?"

38

Originally Posted By: joetedesco
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


I can assure you that the practice you describe is illegal and if they say its OK they are wrong and no nothing about the rules that have been in place for many years, I will search this subject and if I can find an article written by Creighton Schwan I will post it here.


Tell those that disagree that they are incorrect.

Mention my name and ask them to call me anytime so I can discuss the issues with them.

--
Joe Tedesco, Massachusetts
Home Inspector Provider
www.joetedesco.org
[email protected]

www.nachi.org/tedesco.htm
www.nachi.org/tedesco2.htm
www.nachi.org/illinoislicense.htm
www.nachi.org/jtarticles.htm

39

Originally Posted By: pabernathy
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


David, Your questions were as followed:



Q.How do we handle this information?
I see neutral and ground wires under the same terminal screw all the time!

A. Answer: Only one grounded (neutral) conductor can be secured in a single neutral bar terminal in a panelboard. An exception allows two or more paralleled conductors in one termination if the terminal is listed for more than one conductor ( of the same size/AWG).( NEC 408.21 2002 version)

1. New construction: I can see calling attention to this and recommend change. The subcontractor is on site or down the street as it may be.

A- Answer :They should gladly change it and thank you for making them aware of it. You would surprised how many electricians who work all day and do not have time like me, joe, bob and greg do to keep up on it...lol

2. Existing construction: is this code enforcement by recommending the panel being reworked?

A- Well it has been a practice I have seen before as well and usually their is enough room to solve the problem before even thinking about having to add another termination bar.....But I would by all means mention it since you are in the panel.

The intent of this requirement is to ensure that the grounded ( neutral ) conductor of a multiwire branch circuit is not momentarily disconnected, which could result in a destruction of electrical equipment and fires from overvoltage. ( note...if it is a multiwire circuit and in some olders homes it was done...we do not do it nearly as much today...tooo Taboo ! )

If two grounded ( neutral ) conductors are connected to the same terminal, and someone removes one of the neutrals, the other neutral may be accidentially removed as well....if this is done it could cause a excessive line to neutral voltage for one of the circuits.....if in a multiwire circuit...This was the original intent of the ruling.

Now under Art 110.3(b) "2002 version " which requires the equipment to be installed as the manufacturer lists ( instructions and markings ). Their are even a few panels ( UL 67 standards ) that allow upto (3) 10 AWG Eq. grounds to terminate in a single terminal, if the terminal is marked for this purpose.

Hope this explains it a bit......probably more info than you wanted but you can always use this to explain to the contractor WHY...now they will say...but their is no multi-wire circuits on it.....and to that I say...how do you know...did you wire it?...if they say Yes I did....you say...well see now you have learned something new my friend......Kiss Me...

Ok...you might want to leave out the Kiss Me part....![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif)

--
Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com

40

Originally Posted By: srowe
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Quote:
The main problem appears to be the contamination in the panel, the panel interior may need to be replaced (if the contamination is on the bus bars and terminals, the interior needs to be replaced). If just all over the interior of the enclosure, it should be replaced, but at least it would not be as bad.

There shall be no contamination on the interior surfaces, bus bars, terminal bars, etc., and, there is no approved method to clean it off.


I come across this stuff about twice a month and always get the call back saying the electrician said this was fine. My response is fine, get it in writing from the electrician and let him take the heat.

My last inspection on a 2004 condo, the buyer called his electrician and he agreed that everything should be changed! Condo was still under warranty. The condo builder said it was fine ![icon_sad.gif](upload://nMBtKsE7kuDHGvTX96IWpBt1rTb.gif). ARRRGGGHHH!

Can you reference this for me (us)? in the NEC? Florida Building Codes?

thanks!!